Any sps guys here go skimmer-less?

I think the basic idea behind algae scrubbers is to have the macro algae outcompete the micro algae like GHA. So I assume your effort will be a success. Sounds like you're getting a scrubber by turbo. Hope,you share pictures and experience with it. I want to know how easy it is to maintain and how messy it is removing scrubber to remove algae. The guy, Floyd, seems to be a stand up guy with incredible workmanship.

I think the key to being skimmerless is to have another means of exporting nutrients. ie... Huge fuge, ATS, ton of live rock. I don't think you can go skimmerless w/o some means of exporting nutrients.

Skimmers are mechanical nutrient export. Their strength is they are easy to setup, easy to keep efficient (throw out skimmate, clean neck, pump, etc.)

Imo bioexport is more effective, but harder to keep in the exponential/effective growth phase. Even bacteria get full, they run out of space to grow, use up a limiting nutrient and then they start dying and releasing nitrients back- people cannot see this phase until their coral start dying too.

Even pourus substate will get full, it just might take longer than live rock. Good thing with algae is you can see when its getting full.

The nitrogen and phosphate cycles in the reef tank are not allowed to complete, because a link is missing from dissolved waste forms. So either re-incorporate N & P into living things that are acceptable or throw them out. I think we can use all the carbon ("organic") that we put into the tank, as long as it is clean. That is why anaerobic denitrogenation is great (producing nitrogen bubbles coming out of rocks), it keeps the carbon inside tank bacteria. We dump in all this carbon we wish to incorporate into fish & coral (bicarb, fish food) but we dont want the N or P that comes with it. Most of skimmate (bicarb & algae) and micro/macro algae is carbon, that ideally should stay in the tank.

i have a 300 gal dt in the house. i have mostly sps (maybe 50 or more)with some zoas. large des. tang (about 9") large shoal tang (about 8") med blue, yellow, purple, scopas,and Kole tangs. small emperor angel, majestic,singapore,and flame angels. half a doz clowns and other smaller fish, a 300 gal sump outside with somewhat deep sand bed and about 300 lbs of live rock. I also have a 60 gal. tied into the sump with a deep sand bed filled with mangroves i have been growing for about 5 years. As you can see my fish load is heavy and i feed quite often. I haven't checked parameters in years but when i did, the only parameters that really needed consideration were calcium, mag, etc. the large amounts crushed coral keeps my ph stable. tried using a calcium reactor and opted out. because my sump is outside its easy to do a water change. its almost automatic. the water change replaces all of the correct amount of calcium and other trace minerals. don't feel i need to do the change because of nitrates, etc. my mangroves are rooted deep into the sand bed and some of the trunks are over 1" in diameter. with multiple shoots going into the crushed coral. most of the mangroves are at least2 to 3 ft tall. i know thus setup is unconventional but it works for me and its easy to maintain, many times we are gone for 3 or 4 days at a time and have had no problems if we leave for a week or more i have someone cone in and feed my fish. the most time consuming thing is cleaning the front glass

[MENTION=4203]rayray[/MENTION], I hope you could clarify your thoughts a bit for me. When you were referring to the exponential growth phase of bacteria, is there a means to determine if the bacteria are getting "full" or running out of habitat like live rock or siporax . Can't you simply monitor nitrate and phosphates to see if you are limiting nutrients. I don't believe there is a means to measure carbon in the tank. I guess Bottomline line, are there checks and balances or means of detection to determine if your biological filtration/export is functioning appropriately. Can we make it work or is a crash unavoidable by being over reliant on this method--skimmer less. I don't believe I have ever seen a picture of a thriving sps tank that is skimmer less.

What little I know is that with a skimmer, water changes and carbon, TOC (total organic compounds) are similar in our tanks compared to ocean reefs. But the bacterial count is 1/10 of ocean reefs. Skimmer less systems on the other hand have bacterial counts similar to ocean reefs but 2-3 times the TOC. I don't know how to take that information and tweak it into my own tank to control nutrients though



This sort of tank is fascinating to me. The sps are thriving but people like Randy Holnes-Farley suggest water changes are inadequate to maintain calcium and alkalinity without supplementation via dosing or reactor in anything outside of a nano or pico tank. I wonder what is happening in this tank to provide the necessary calcium and alkalinity for all those sps.

I do recall a few sps TOTM on RC that were skimmerless. They had other ways to oxygenate like O3 system or air injection.

I was a biochemistry major so i see a reef tank as a bacterial culture that supports higher life forms. Ive said before, there is no "sustaining" a reef tank, either is growing and thriving or dyeing and regressing. In the lab how you keep bacteria in the exponential growth phase and not in the stationary/decline phase is keep giving them space and more nutrients than they need to grow. If you cannot grow enough bacteria to do the job, the of course you would need to remove waste by other means. In the reef tank, this may not be possible, so you would need to limit the anount of fish, keep adding substrate, etc. and also use a skimmer and biopellets, etc. but the most effecient part of the total waste processing/removal was the biological growing part (growing wast out of the water column) and not the mechanical removal part.

I think guys who do not supplement with carx or dosers are getting the balance from live rock and live sand.

[MENTION=4203]rayray[/MENTION], I hope you could clarify your thoughts a bit for me. When you were referring to the exponential growth phase of bacteria, is there a means to determine if the bacteria are getting "full" or running out of habitat like live rock or siporax . Can't you simply monitor nitrate and phosphates to see if you are limiting nutrients. I don't believe there is a means to measure carbon in the tank. I guess Bottomline line, are there checks and balances or means of detection to determine if your biological filtration/export is functioning appropriately. Can we make it work or is a crash unavoidable by being over reliant on this method--skimmer less. I don't believe I have ever seen a picture of a thriving sps tank that is skimmer less.

What little I know is that with a skimmer, water changes and carbon, TOC (total organic compounds) are similar in our tanks compared to ocean reefs. But the bacterial count is 1/10 of ocean reefs. Skimmer less systems on the other hand have bacterial counts similar to ocean reefs but 2-3 times the TOC. I don't know how to take that information and tweak it into my own tank to control nutrients though



This sort of tank is fascinating to me. The sps are thriving but people like Randy Holnes-Farley suggest water changes are inadequate to maintain calcium and alkalinity without supplementation via dosing or reactor in anything outside of a nano or pico tank. I wonder what is happening in this tank to provide the necessary calcium and alkalinity for all those sps.

So given the above, how would you design an ideal reef tank in terms of nutrient control and parameters. Sounds like skimmer, but what about bare bottom or sand, live rock or siporax, carbon dosing, GAC, GFO, water change or not, reactor or doser, refugium, chaeto or ATS, bacterial dosing or not. Are you a numbers guy or do you read coral health. What nutrient levels do you think make the most sense.

[MENTION=7067]Smite[/MENTION] sorry if you've already said it, I must have missed it if so.

What is the cost for one of those, and I think they are shipping any day now right?