scmas forum

And your comment isn't "smart ass" as you put it? You crack me up Bill, you think you are all high and mighty...........oh wait..........

oh, I am smart ass all right, especially in response... to those that were high and mighty...

Please dont go to the oh, you started it ... cause then I would have to say, no, you did, so there...

YOu want to start shit then try to take the high road... gimme a break.

But if you want bring it, I can take it and give it, most times you and others dont get anywhere except more pissed off then when you started, but whatever level of mentality you want to go,

one of the reasons i joined scmas for the first time this year wasnt because of the speakers the club brings in once in a while. i can find info by asking questions on forums like this and even get expert help from guys like calfo and randy.

the real reason i joined scmas? deals. plain and simple. i heard that i would get 10% off stuff from local vendors willing to participate. i love this incentive. i spent more than i normally would if the 10% wasnt in place. it was and still is a great incentive for members to take advantage of.

rap was awesome. i went for...deals. and i got great ones indeed. new 6025's for $45 each, awesome frags from good friends whom i have made through the club and other meetings...and it was great coming to such a large venue with so many people and vendors who share such passion and interest for the hobby we all are here on this forum (and rc of course).

i love going to frag swaps, club meetings and events like rap. why? because i have won a $250 bermuda skimmer and a $500 bermuda skimmer from raffles. what other venue offers those things?

all this banter sounds like a lot of hurt feelings. it saddens me that the scmas meetings i have attended where there was once great camaraderie now seems tense and cautious (since i was at the last meeting).

I agree totally... I am a bit upset that the focus is on me, for bringing to light what you and I felt at that last meeting.

My intention for bring these issues to daylight was to put a fire under those that make can make a difference...

Unfortunately, I dont think they got the hint...Instead, they slip into the good ole boys club and feel that the info they discuss is not for general membership to hear...

Our virgin ears would probably bleed or explode..
Me thinks they are in damage control and trying to controlwhat and how the public percieves them and how they mis managed RAP and Kevin

They would love to blame him for everything and take no responsibility at all,

They truly are going to resist any documnetation of thier meetings or actions..

I wonder why???

!wow!

As I recall, I was not the one who started anything. And why do you insist on using profanity consistently in your posts? Let's show some respect for the board and the members here. Remember that there are minors who read these threads. Yes, they probably are already using this language in their daily lives but let's TRY to act like the righteous individual that you claim to be.

As for the SCMAS and RAP problems, they started long before you got involved. So let them resolve these issues THIS TIME without interference from all these outsiders. Yes, Yes, we as members have the rights to know everything, but that isn't going to help them or us at this point. Perhaps in the future when this is all behind us, your offers to help will be of value instead of being a hinderance.

You complain of the "good ole boys" mentality, but when you really think about it, what organization, big or small, doesn't behave the same? I doubt you can walk into the President's Cabinet meeting and demand to sit in. It's a free country and we all have our rights but some things still need to be done behind closed doors.

New official sign for all of Bill's threads

OK,

just looko above at the thread, and see who started the shit, profanity on purpose cause it is what it is, especially with your idiotic incessant denial that you throw out a smart ass remark when none was intitiated by me... EXACTLY, this has been going on for twenty years as far as I can tell, so, what, another twenty years to let it work itself out... give me break, again, I will call it like I see it... Funny thing is, I offered prior to starting the shit, again profanity on purpose, this time, just to irk you...

I offered in any way possible, to do any menial task, as long as it freed up resources so they can work on other priorities, but again, refused, or not accepted, is that better and more politically correct, as you can see, PC dont work, and it dont work for me... they may lal have the club, but when it comes to business, it is all business, and the good ole boys mentality is left at the board room door. Accountibility, to those that they are responsible is paramount to provide the assurance or at least the appearnce things and TALK is not wortless, and membership is being respected.. Actually, you can walk into the congress and sentate meetings, they are open to the public. They do have closed door meetings, and thiere are procedures to announce them, they dont let people fly accross the country only to be shut out at the door... especially if they are doing two things,

1. Complaining or talking about no one from membership willing to participate in meetings and stuff.

2. Make issue with other board members, i.e. Kevin, for turning down help and support, when they themselves do the same thing...

they are hypocritical. They are for a reason. They are resisting change, they are resisting education, they are resisting progress, and knowldege, not from me, but from the resource called the membership, by way of not sharing information with us...

They are doomed to spend the next twenty years boggled down in issues like this and they expect us to think it is all good, while they do benefit personnly from being board members, with thier dealings with vendors, mfgs, etc...

we all have the potential for conflict of interest, as thier dealings could affect what and how much they pay for thier own tank supplies, at the least...

Whether or not they actually do fall prey to that conflict is a question, but again, just because the potential for conflict exists, does not mean it was violated...

SO, you didnt do so well here this time, care to try again...

man i hope bill does not work for the post office

Bill, I don't even know where to begin here... I mean, I just don't.

I understand that you believe your views are correct. And that's part of what I see as the problem.

I've read a lot of your posts. And from what I've seen, you just don't get it. You speak of "non compete clause(s)" and how Kevin didn't do anything intentionally...

That may be, but in my view (and pretty much everyone else on the planet), he broke "the rules", plain and simple. From what I've been able to piece together, he "seized" control and pretty much had a total disregard for anything any of the steering committee members had to say (except, perhaps, those that happened to agree with him. And the jury is still out on that one).

The steering committee should have smacked him down right away, but they didn't. They know that. Now they're just trying to clean up the mess, and we need to just let them do it.

People already KNEW what was going on. Not as many, but people DID KNOW. All that your post did was fan the flames a bit. In a way I'm glad, but on the other, I'm pretty concerned. The club (and clubs in general) are taking a pretty bad hit over this. There are problems - sure. We know this. But your ranting, pointed comments and - honestly - skewed view of not only the events but also what is logical and reasonable, well... You just made it worse.

I don't doubt that your intentions were good. Not at all. But your view of this just defies logic... Kevin did things that anyone with an inkling of a clue would know are against club interests. He did it systematically, over time, and with gross disregard for the interests of the club.

As for them spending the "next 20 years bogged down in issues like this", I'd be willing to wager that within a year SCMAS will have By Laws and a much more tightly structured leadership. Give the guys some credit, Bill. This was a HUGE issue and I don't think ANYONE who's been stung by this will let this go by without addressing the majority of these issues...

I am fully supportive of SCMAS and their leadership. They have learned from this and are making efforts to rectify it. They need our support and NOT our condemnation. Your innuendo and negativity is just TOTALLY counterproductive here!

Again, I believe that you are trying to do the right thing. I do not sense any malice. However, your view is not the only view and I would encourage you to step back a bit and re-evaluate your position on this.

These guys are volunteers - they are not pros. They do it for others (or are supposed to, at least), and they do it because they want to help. Clubs don't have a "how to" manual; they figure it out as they go. Although I'm not pleased with what's happened, please, cut them some slack and let them clean up their own mess. Being helpful is what is needed here; not negativity and distraction.

If you choose to banter with me about this, please, do it via email or private chat. This topic needs to lose some of it's steam so that they can concentrate on getting their house in order instead of dealing with rumor and innuendo.

not that it matters but your credibility & hypocrisy ar in true question... you rant about not making it public while all long bumping the thread with your attacks against me, the messenger, the one that wants to stop the hypocrisy & move forward.

If getting this issue to daylight so that it gets acted upon faster is not an overall benefit, I dont know what is...

Things have been stagnant with respect to procedures & checks & balances long enough, especially in light of another hypocrisy of thinking they have business putting on RAP 008 without SOME form of procedure and protection..

the feeling is totally mutual, erego the need for more people to get involved and express thier opinions, and majority rules, not the good ole boys, and thier clandestine meetings at 'coffee shops' this is part of one example of hypocrisy that you dont address in the sentance below...

The non comp issue is tht they fault him for breaking that rule, BUT THERE IS NO RULE!!! Dont you get it!???

So, instead of creating the rule for the next guy, they go after the guy that broke that unwritten rule... HYPOCRISY

[bold](BTW: You brag about breaking the same rule... you posted on inland reefs that you got all kinds of info and names and number. Who did you get permission from at SCMAS to get and use this for your use???[/bold] AGAIN, I do believe Kevin crossed many lines, and I do believe the 'steering comittee' / board of directors, did not have in place the procedures for accounting, reporting, rectifying any of the issues, real or not...

If there needs to be an investigation of Kevin, there also needs to be an investigation of the board.

And this investigation will ultimately come down to a lack of procedures, which still have not been addressed.. Just like we need to let Kevin clean up his mess??? Hypocrit!!!

The cops, judges and jury hung him before the start...

There is nothing fair about the investigation by the people invlved in the problem too... then I did my what I intended rules and laws were made to protect the people. last time I checked, I am a people. It is a public club, and that club smells of hypocrisy and is basically lieing to the people that DONT KNOW ABOUT IT. This has been going on for at least six months I know about...

You know what, you would think that if you the good ole boys got tirred of knocking thier heads against the wall with something, the would SAY SOMETHING, but, nope, me thinks there is other considerations, which fall into the conflict of interest category, which would be another HYPOCRITIC action as they accuse Kevin of that as well... And you have all the information and have concluded your own investigation??? And decry that in open forum as FACT... AGAIN, you proove your ability to be fair, and or at lest the image of fair, is gone for good. Congrats , as long as the rules & by laws are the priority and take precedence above other special projects that is fine, it can take as long as it takes as long as someone is working on it as best as they can..

But, if you dont have enough people to man the rules comittee, but seem to have plenty of guys on the 'investigatin comittee' then the priority is skewed
I dont commend them. I dont respect them. They are hypocritical, and until they admit that, nothing will get done, unless someone else step up & replace them or keep them honest, as in following some procedures and prtocols, commensurate with the level of activitiy the club is doing, i.e. putting on a RAP, better have intense procedure to prevent a repeat of the past.. It is not the only view, nor did I ever claim it to be. I have always decried others to speak up, I heard , mostly to take it private, which is impossible with the lack of forum for discussion and documentation of that discussion...

I also hear some wonder whats up, and some flame Kevin,

They dont know a lot, cause no one know about it, and the people that control the flow & content of info is like you, predisposed to Kevions guilt.
If left to it's usual good ole boy choir, they will feed little to no info, and maybe it is true, but most certainly they will not advedrtise thier responsibilities in the fiasco at all, or not in perspective anyway..

ACCTUALLY THEY DO, that is the point. I can not help it if the good ole boys or you can not figure out how to search the internet, or the library, for books or other information on club orgainiztion, but a simple search for club rules will enlighent even the most dense...

I actually bought a DUMMIES GUIDE TO ... Roberts rules of Order... Pretty informative, and again, it is up to the club membership how many rules to enact, and the level of events they can handle with that level of rules... TWENTY YEARS AND TICKING.... Six months and ticking...

And the problem is they are hypocritical by still planning RAP 08 without the necessary procedures in place to prevent this from happening again...

Even the space shuttle was grounded during the investigation, and I think that a bit more importaint and expensive to delay then RAP... But actually, the RISK at RAP is probably higher in its potential a lot of people... So accountability for that type of event is crucial and vital. If they decide to have an independant investigation of the event, and themselves, then yes, I will let them do thier job of appointing that independant team...
Then they can do thier job by initiating action on rules and procedures, then communicating with membership to ascertain the level of rules and CYA wanted or needed, and then a steering comittee can research and make reccomendations based upon the level of procedure, the level of comittment from volunteers and other issues involved to reccomend or not reccomend future events like RAP.

No one should be working on RAP 08 now... GET IT... This club has not show the resources or the ability to manage this event without getting into trouble...

Fix the problem before moving forward on extra curricular activities...

PLAIN and Simple.. I will banter with you in public just like you bantered to me in public over at RC, knowing I could not reply..

Your intention of letting this thread or other threads die down belie the true reason you and others want it to die down, and that is to limit what others can see, or thier reactions to seeing mine and others posts about the situtaion, and fear of the question they will ask, or how it will affect the BOARD members...

They are not board members, they have carried the titles, they have had thier pow wows, but they have failed thier obligations and comitments, for whatever reason.

They are volunteers, they are not pros, but they are also not humble, nor remorseful, nor open to any outside involvement. (I can speculate some good reasons why???)

Either the membership steps up, and replaces them, or augments them to employ the procedures necessary to show the membership they DESERVE the confidence to handle things on thier own, and then and only then will I give them the respect they so desperately want...

there seems to be alot of involvement in this thread with the parties that are directly affiliated with SDMAS.

to me, an outsider i dont really see whats so wrong with what bill is asking for.

checks and balances.

is that like a new thing, i thought that sort of thing was the basis for our own government for like 200 years and going strong.

maybe its just cus its a tight knit group of reefers and there watching there own backs. maybe mistakes were made. but if it were my best friend making a mistake i would try to help him through it, wish for it to blow over and try to not skyline the issue.

bill is the checks and balances, he says bring it out in the open lets talk about it. I really dont see anything wrong with that

he might use profanity but that just means he cares about the issue.

unless your one of the people that dont want it to be skylined, and why is that, what do you care if the truth is known, its your club right dont you want accountability?

maybe you have something against bill. maybe the parties involved are you friends. but as an outsider looking in i dont see whats so wrong with what bill is asking for. his delivery might ruffle your feathers a bit but that doesnt change the issue.


and on a side note there is no such thing as bad publicity, i bet SDMAS will have more members, and active members than before.

WHICH MAS? sDmas or sCmas?
Nobody ever said that checks and balances were a bad idea. Not once. Everyone acknowledges that they are sorely needed!
This is not the gr***y knoll. There are individuals in the group that are doing the best they can. I do not sense - in any fashion - that there is any "conspiracy" or "coverup". They had some issues. They acknowledge it and they are working on fixing it. I am personally confident that they will make large strides by this time next year.
This may sound odd, but I don't even stick up for my WIFE when she's wrong... What's wrong is wrong. Period. Fortunately I don't need to deny her my support very often, however it's something static. Right=right and wrong is just plain wrong.

Kevin was my friend. "Letting go" of a friend is not something I do lightly. I always try to help my friends learn and grow and be better people. In return I get their friendship and counsel and camaraderie. The facts surrounding that particular issue were painfully clear; I had no choice. Now that he has stepped down perhaps things will change, however it is still something I am not able to come to terms with. I tried to help him, but to no avail. I tried; I really did...

This should have remained within the club. If shouting was to be done it should have been done at the meetings or via email. Although I understand the "whistle blower" angle, it wasn't appropriate. Things were happening that Bill isn't aware of, and all it needed was a bit more time to happen. I will again say that I thought he meant the best, however it was pointed out to him MANY times that making it a public issue was NOT the proper way to deal with it...

Being the direct recipient of some of that profanity I cannot agree.

And to think that *I* don't care about this issue would be ludicrous... Meaning, I care FAR more p***ionately than Bill does, but I still don't think it's appropriate to berate, belittle and attack someone as Bill has me. I don't care who he thinks he is - that's just not right...
I insist on accountability. From anyone or any THING.

As for why I don't think it should be "skylined", I don't want it to be further belabored because all it does is draw negative attention to the club AND other clubs. Things are not always as black and white as they would seem... There are subtleties in everything, and this is no exception.
I think Bill is well meaning but ill informed. I do not believe he has the objectivity he purports to have, nor do I feel he is being reasonable nor logical in some of his suggestions or conclusions. A committee to oversee the other committee? An "investigation"? The only reasonable thing is to go over the books and move on. Moving on meaning get some bylaws and somewhat better controls in place. Then improve upon them as they go...
Conceptually he has some very strong and valid points. None that haven't already been discussed already, mind you, but they are still very valid.

The thing is, everyone KNOWS they need to tighten things up. And they're talking about it. But instead of letting them talk about it privately, he wants all the minutiae and piddly stuff "made public". That just isn't practical in every instance.

Again, this is no gr***y knoll. There is no "conspiracy". And honestly, all this is making those people who put so much of themselves into running this club (and others) feel VERY unappreciated...

I will offer this: if Bill thinks he can do it better, he can nominate himself.
I STRONGLY disagree with that cliche'. STRONGLY... NOBODY WINS FROM THIS INCIDENT.

NOBODY!

As I said, things were already being discussed and being put in motion. Bill may disagree with that, however that is the case.

Thank you josh, you pretty much hit much of the issue on the head..

I am only looking for equality if and no hypocrisy..

If going after the president for information is IMPORTANT, so is going after th Board... Do it with the same vim and vigor... if not there is a problem...

And if we know that some level of accountiblity is important or needed, please SHOW US WHAT PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE SO FAR in creating the rules or procedures you propose that th club have to prevent this from happening again...

Will this be prioritized to be completed prior to haveing another occurance or issue or after???

Workinig and planning for RAP 08 while the issues that you are accusing the president of violating are not addressed, is hypocritical...

Why risk having this happen again, until appropriate safeguards are in place.

Would you like to see a failure or catastrophe occur that could have been prevented./??

Ultimately, most everyone missed the point....

I dont want rules and procedures... I just want a place to go each month, hang out and see folks I hvent seen in a month, and maybe win a raffle item...

I think most agree with this, but that does not matter.

I think the membership needs to think about what they want, and let or elect leadership that will give them that, nothing more, nothing less...

That is all


The level of safeguards should dictate the level of event undertaken...


Keep things simple and easy. we are just a bunch of reefers with modest needs and wants...

That is all

Bill

no thank you, too much liability rightnow. maybe just volunteer for picking up the trash iof that will help the group... Oh, I know they been IN MOTION, for how long now??? six months at least, probably longer...

I gurantee that things will proceed a bit faster now they dont want to be in the limelight so to speak, if they dont move faster, then they are not that embar***ed by the dirty laundry then are they??

As Josh and a few others have said, I am not eloquent, not even close, I wasnt trying to be...

I was treating the issue with teh same level of respect I have witnessed the 'leadership;' has treated the issue, with best intentions to get to teh end...

BTW: I hear that there is some 'principals' that are in charge??? What is a principal?? are they elected??? Are they appointed?

Who appointed them???

Shouldnt there be THREE PEOPLE ON THE BOARD TO MAKE DECISIONS for the membership?

How about getting a volunteer from membership at teh meeting to fill in til the election???

Cant do business with just two people,, not even sure if they are elected either but at least they been doing part of the job anyway...