For salinity it's always a good idea to have multiple ways of checking (and verifying) and also using a known solution for calibration. I just had to re-calibrate my refractometer, as it was reading low. I only knew this from using the TM hydrometer.
John’s official/unofficial tank(s) build/rebuild thread
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happyreefer
Member
It’s not pretty, but it’s moving in the right direction after hitting a few roadblocks. For the first time since I’ve been keeping reef tanks, ostreopsis showed up last week. What was initially thought to be the normal uglies, turned into something truly ugly. After looking under the scope, I was able to identify them as ostreopsis (one species of dinos). My nutrients weren’t ultra low, but combined with intense lighting and simply not enough good guys (bacteria from live rock/sand) there was an opportunity for them to take over. I didn’t have any trisodium phosphate on hand, so I used TM phos-feed (not the best way to increase PO4) to slowly increase P. Dosing ammonium bicarbonate helped increase N easily. Last week I tested 6ppm of N and 0.22ppm of P. So I borrowed a 57w UV and started to siphon out as much as I could every day for a few days. Today, they’re still present and I expect them to be around a little while longer, but their numbers are greatly reduced. Today I’m hitting 13ppm of N and 0.36ppm of P, not the levels I really want, but until things settle down, I’m not complaining. I’m dosing a little live phyto daily and started dosing LC again to get P down a little, in hopes that N will reduce naturally as well. I have some PNS substrate sauce on the way, which I’ll perform the first water change, then add some in order to outcompete the ostreopsis. A few acropora are not happy, but they’re not completely destroyed either.
I know the UV is helping with keeping things clear, but talking about molar ratios, I’m currently hitting 55, so at least my nutrients are balanced and I can see that in action. What’s really cool is that I noticed there are a few hitchhiker corals that came with the Fiji live rock, one I can get a good pic of, but the other is a little harder to see.
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Are you saying the 13ppm for nitrite is too high? Gosh, I hope not because I try to keep mine at around 20 to 30. When you say you're dosing LC in hopes the Phosphates will get lower, what does LC stand for? Lastly, what exactly does "Nitrate / Phosphate * 1.53" mean?
happyreefer
Member
Yes, it's certainly made a humongous difference in my reef life! Now, I know exactly what my salinity levels are in the tank and the new salt mix as I've been running my tanks at around 1.024 for an awful long time. I wish I had this a long time ago lol. Thank you for the recommendation! I really appreciate it!!
mescobar
Member
Having your nitrates at 20-30ppm isn't a problem. Ideally, your phosphate will be at a specific ratio relative to your nitrate. LC is short for lanthanum chloride which is the active ingredient in products like Phosphat-E, which is used to help lower phosphates.
Example, if you had nitrates of 20ppm and wanted a molar ratio of 100 (per Charles Delbeek), then you'd want your phosphates to be 0.3 ppm.
20/P * 1.53 = 100
20*1.53 = 100P
20*1.53/100=P
P=0.306 ppm
The recommended molar ratio according to Delbeek is 50-100
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This ^^^^^ and I would try to be as close to 50 as possible. Also, this isn't a chasing numbers thing either, so don't go changing anything if your corals are doing fine and are healthy. Slowly achieving a balance between N and P goes a long way in keeping a healthy tank.
As @mescobar mentioned (and explained), it's the formula to figure out the molar ratio between Nitrate and Phosphate. You simply take Nitrate divide it by Phosphate and multiply by 1.53 and as I mentioned before, as close to 50 is ideal. Watch the video I posted with Charles talking about this relationship on High Tide Aquatics YT channel. It's in this thread (I think?).
And no, 13ppm isn't high by today's standards and it all depends on the health of your animals. Observation is key, no matter what. Numbers are telling what's going on at that moment, but the overall health of the animals and tank say a lot more than the numbers.
happyreefer
Member
Gotcha, thanks for the info! I'm going to have to think about this for a little longer but so far I seem to get most of what you said. Do you mind if you can do the math for me really quick, where does my Phosphate have to be if my nitrite is 20 and I want to be at a molar ratio of 50? Thanks in advance!
This ^^^^^ and I would try to be as close to 50 as possible. Also, this isn't a chasing numbers thing either, so don't go changing anything if your corals are doing fine and are healthy. Slowly achieving a balance between N and P goes a long way in keeping a healthy tank.
As @mescobar mentioned (and explained), it's the formula to figure out the molar ratio between Nitrate and Phosphate. You simply take Nitrate divide it by Phosphate and multiply by 1.53 and as I mentioned before, as close to 50 is ideal. Watch the video I posted with Charles talking about this relationship on High Tide Aquatics YT channel. It's in this thread (I think?).
Yeah, I'm for sure not trying to chase numbers as much as I have been not a long ago. I noticed some people having really high phosphates and nitrite but yet their stuff still looks pretty healthy and are growing with no crazy outbreaks of any kind. I guess each tank is different and, therefore, reacts differently to their parameter levels. Maybe their molar ratios are in line so regardless of how high their nutrient levels are, the reef tank is doing relatively well. I agree, the health of the animals is the most important ingredient on judging how well the tank is doing. I'm going to have to watch that video later, hopefully the information there will register lol. Have a great night!
Sorry, I was out of town for a week, but I'm back now. I wouldn't try to match your PO4 to NO3 if it's that high, your PO4 would have to be really high in order to get that balanced ratio. I think you're better off keeping you PO4 in a good range and allowing your N to naturally come down a little to balance out. I also don't think there's much of a difference between NO3 of 10 or 20, but I do think having PO4 in a healthy range matters more. For some reason, most look at NO3 as being the difference in color or health, which I don't think it makes that big of a deal, but PO4 will have a greater impact on coral health and color.
shootingstar_reef
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For clarity, and to make sure I'm understanding correctly, are you intentionally using nitrITE? NitrITE (NO2) and nitrATE (NO3) are two very distinct parameters.
Might be a typo?
happyreefer
Member
Gotcha, I misunderstood this all in the beginning of my reeflife, lol. I always thought having NO3 of 20 to 30 was the optimum range and having low low phosphate (.02 to .04) was also optimum. I know now that my low low phosphate was a big mistake as I was having a lot of problems with dinos and other things for many years and for the times when it did work out, I don't know how to explain why it did. Things have gotten so much better now that I've kept my PO4 at .1, I feel like I finally have things under control for the most part. I forgot where I got all my info from but there were completely wrong about nutrient management lol. Thanks for all your help!!
Sorry for the late reply, just helped my friend move his big tank tank out of State.
I meant to say nitrate, that was my bad. I keep getting those two things mixed up lol.
It wasn't a typo lol.
I finally got my Hana Checker Phosphate ULR and had a chance to try it last week, it was one of the most eye opening experiences I've had in reefing as of lately. Now I know, more or less, where my PO4 levels are at. What's really interesting about this test kit is that when you mix the regent with a really low PO4 level like .01 or .02, the water color in the vial is clear whereas if the PO4 level is at around .1 then the water color in the vial is light blue. This is the interesting part, Neophos color is light blue. If I guessed it right, the Hana Checkers are a color titration digital reader which I think is really cool! I want to try using the one for Nitrate to see how it works. Thanks to everyone who recommended Hana checkers for Po4 and No3
Yeah, the Hanna testers work on color and get the HR Nitrate tester, as it's just one reagent like the others.Gotcha, I misunderstood this all in the beginning of my reeflife, lol. I always thought having NO3 of 20 to 30 was the optimum range and having low low phosphate (.02 to .04) was also optimum. I know now that my low low phosphate was a big mistake as I was having a lot of problems with dinos and other things for many years and for the times when it did work out, I don't know how to explain why it did. Things have gotten so much better now that I've kept my PO4 at .1, I feel like I finally have things under control for the most part. I forgot where I got all my info from but there were completely wrong about nutrient management lol. Thanks for all your help!!
Sorry for the late reply, just helped my friend move his big tank tank out of State.
I meant to say nitrate, that was my bad. I keep getting those two things mixed up lol.
It wasn't a typo lol.
I finally got my Hana Checker Phosphate ULR and had a chance to try it last week, it was one of the most eye opening experiences I've had in reefing as of lately. Now I know, more or less, where my PO4 levels are at. What's really interesting about this test kit is that when you mix the regent with a really low PO4 level like .01 or .02, the water color in the vial is clear whereas if the PO4 level is at around .1 then the water color in the vial is light blue. This is the interesting part, Neophos color is light blue. If I guessed it right, the Hana Checkers are a color titration digital reader which I think is really cool! I want to try using the one for Nitrate to see how it works. Thanks to everyone who recommended Hana checkers for Po4 and No3
Phosphate has more of an impact on coral health than Nitrate. Besides, it takes a lot of effort for stoney corals to uptake Nitrate from the water, which is why they prefer ammonium/urea as their nitrogen source, as it's easily absorbed. I've had this conversation many times regarding NO3 levels, if you have detectable NO3, you simply have enough nitrogen entering the system, this whole idea that Nitrate has to be 20-30ppm is mind story people keep telling themselves, it's the PO4 level that really matters here. Where NO3 matters is its relationship with PO4 and that it's "balanced", which allows bacteria and corals to uptake/utilize them at the same rate. It's only when they're "out of balance" with each other that you'll notice weird algae appear or their growth being rapid and uncontrollable. And if you find that you're low on PO4, just pick up some Loudwolf trisodium phosphate and use the "James Planted Calculator" to create your stock solution, it's so much cheaper and you can make only what you need, instead buying a large bottle. Just choose potassium phosphate, as the calculation is virtually the same.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm
happyreefer
Member
The website link you just sent is pretty heavy, I'm going to have to read it like 5 or 6 times just to start understanding what all that means lol. I'll give it try tho! The only thing I'm using to dose for Po4 is Neophos, hopefully that should cut it for now. It seems like things are getting a lot better since it's been a lot more steady. I did notice that Po4 drops much faster than Nitrate whenever I don't dose either one of them. I think I see what you're saying about the higher impact on coral health from Po4, that they need it more, thus, is absorbed at a higher rate. I think that's what you're saying. I've never heard about ammonium/urea and I've been reefing for about 10 years, lol. I'm so bad a reefing haha! Yeah, I'll definitely keep my Nitrates lower moving forward while keeping my Po4 at around .1; what really sucks is that I've been telling people to keep their Nitrates at around 20 to 30 and Phosphates at around .1; I feel really bad now, I need to message them all tomorrow lol
There are no magic numbers here, maybe your system does well with nitrate at that level, while another system suffers. Don't feel bad, I have a friend you grows coral for a living and he swears those nitrate levels are what makes his corals thrive, and in his (and yours) it could be? But I think if you lowered them slowly and observe, you may notice something? It's been my experience (and others), that PO4 is what really matters in regards to coral health. If you have fish in your system and you feed them a few times a day, you most likely have more than enough nitrogen for the corals to consume, nitrate is what's left over after that process. If you want to lower nitrate, then slowly decrease it and see how if affects the corals and the system as a whole. Just go slow and observe. I've been doing this for decades and I'm still learning, so don't worry about the advice you've given, it comes from experience and it's sharing this information that really matters. I reef with my eyes first, observation should be the first thing we learn, what healthy corals look like, what a healthy system looks like, not the actual numbers themselves, but the overall picture. You may be surprised by the numbers when you see certain systems. I think keeping PO4 around 0.1ppm is a good plan, as it gives you a little room to play with. Cheers!
happyreefer
Member
Yeah, I know someone who has an incredibly high phosphate and nitrate, and yet everything in his tank seem to be doing just fine. I was scratching my head, big time. Guess, that's just the way it goes sometimes. I'm going to slowly lower my nitrate levels. I've my glass not get dirty for a long time once, I miss those days. Keeping my Phosphate at around .1 has been a really good experience so far, hopefully I'm not too far away from the auto pilot stage. Thanks for all the feedback, thank you so much! Cheers!!
As you get more coral biomass, things will be a little easier and you'll probably find you'll have the opposite problem. But things should be easier to dial in, it just takes time.
happyreefer
Member
You're going to have to show me how to make one of those aluminum stands one day. I wanted to get one but the one I want cost a pretty penny. With all the problems we are having in geopolitics, I think I need to start saving my reefing money lol. Your stand looks really nice!
I designed the stand for my main tank which is steal and is way overkill for what it is, but thought it would look cool against the walnut panels. For my son's tank, I wanted to go all 8020 and it was pretty easy to figure out. Fortunately I had a friend who had a cnc machine that milled the counter bore hardware. When I upgrade my 90g to a larger tank, I'll definitely build an 8020 stand. For what I paid for my steal stand, I could've fabricated a pretty elaborate 8020 stand and still had some money left over. 8020 is pretty easy to work with, but it takes some time to figure out the right hardware.
happyreefer
Member
I definitely want to get my hands on one of those 8020 stand for my main tank, however, I paid 600 for a custom wood stand not long ago. Although it's made of wood lol, I would argue it's one of the best wooden stand the reefing hobby has ever seen haha! After my friend (who has tons of experience in reefing) checked it out, he told me, "damn bro, I've never seen a wooden stand built like that, it's fucking crazy!". Lol. I was like, "why?" Then he showed all the different reasons why it was built to some standards he's never seen. I would have to agree with what he said lol. I can show a picture of the design later. But, yeah, I really want one of those aluminum 8020 stands one day. I want to get one for my 40g AIO which has a steel stand that I paid 600 plus tax lol. The problem with that stand is that it's so darn heavy! That's the stand I take to Reefapalooza haha! So yeah, maybe I might get one for that
Wood stands are great and can last forever when built properly and sealed to keep moisture out. I built my nano system with wood (it's not perfect), but it should last for a long time. Watch the Tidal Gardens videos on the new building and their stands. You can see how they're put together and use the same concepts for smaller stands, etc. Once you understand how they should be designed, it's pretty easy to make (design) your own.I definitely want to get my hands on one of those 8020 stand for my main tank, however, I paid 600 for a custom wood stand not long ago. Although it's made of wood lol, I would argue it's one of the best wooden stand the reefing hobby has ever seen haha! After my friend (who has tons of experience in reefing) checked it out, he told me, "damn bro, I've never seen a wooden stand built like that, it's fucking crazy!". Lol. I was like, "why?" Then he showed all the different reasons why it was built to some standards he's never seen. I would have to agree with what he said lol. I can show a picture of the design later. But, yeah, I really want one of those aluminum 8020 stands one day. I want to get one for my 40g AIO which has a steel stand that I paid 600 plus tax lol. The problem with that stand is that it's so darn heavy! That's the stand I take to Reefapalooza haha! So yeah, maybe I might get one for that
