Deep Sand Bed Rotting

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#1
Sooooo I used old sand from a previous refugium to add onto another 60 lbs of live sand when making my Mangrove Refugium. 22 x 22 x 10 frag tank, 6 inches of sand and 250 mangroves. For the past few months I've been pulling out dead mangroves seedlings that have failed to sprout for one reason or another and there's an obvious smell of rot. Dunno what to do about this 'cause I feel like even though the refugium is completely separate from the main system. It might be polluting the tank even though the mangroves themselves are thriving for the most part...

suggestion?... i'm thinking of shutting it down entirely and re-establish a new refugium separately and reconnecting it back into the main system when its finally cycled....

here's a pic from 3 months ago.. Now, it has alot more vegetation and another 100 mangroves packed into it.. probably why many of them are being suffocated and dying..

 
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#4
There's a sheesh ton of nutrients!... Phos is at 0.50+ on 3 separate Hannas and Nitrates are probably 20.. mainly cause I feed like 20-30 mL of coral smoothie i make every 2-3 days... sometimes daily.. I'm more concerned about the rottening sand affecting the system itself, not the Mangroves welfare :)...

yeah sure Sanh, if only our schedules worked out right and you're not working when I'm not working... :p

i take a few off your hands wally
 
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#8
hahaha.. that would be a poor financial decision if it was mean to be profitable especially since they'll needa be 15+ feet before these trees are mature..

I bought half to tryout as filtration and in a trade for corals I had, I got the other half... now I have a sheesh-load!

wait why do you have so many mangroves? are you "breeding" them?
 
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#9
Start to thin them out. Put the question ton to the ask Gumbii anything about Gardening thread. IMO you have planted them too close together. I read something a couple years ago that one mangrove for every ten gallons of water to filter. Are you giving them added nutrients ? I have 660 gal of reef... 300 display and I don't have that many mangroves. I don't run a skimmer because they are doing what they are suppose to be doing. As they mature I remove some. I also add iron every water change. Good luck
 
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#10
if your DSB is a few years old it might be too full of nutrients and need to be changed out. If its pretty new, it might just needs faster flow over it & that smell is appropriate since they are anaerobic and should smell like diarrhea.
 
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#11
if your DSB is a few years old it might be too full of nutrients and need to be changed out. If its pretty new, it might just needs faster flow over it & that smell is appropriate since they are anaerobic and should smell like diarrhea.
RayRay you have raised a lot of questions in my thinking of an ecosystem. I have a system very similar to Wally's. Now I am wondering....On land the anaerobic breakdown is good for the soil. The process rejuvenates the system. It encourages the growth of the ecosystem. If my mangroves were grown in soil wouldn't that bacteria be beneficial to their growth? Isn't that the whole purpose of plants in a saltwater system? The main reason I tried Mangroves was to leave nutrients in the system, and eliminate Nitrate sand Phosphates. I have noticed my deep sand bed releasing bubbles from underneath. That has subsided. Fish are happy, SPS and LPS corals are happy. Should I expect a major problem in the future? BTW the sand bed in my dt and sump are over Three years old. HELP!!!
 
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#12
RayRay you have raised a lot of questions in my thinking of an ecosystem. I have a system very similar to Wally's. Now I am wondering....On land the anaerobic breakdown is good for the soil. The process rejuvenates the system. It encourages the growth of the ecosystem. If my mangroves were grown in soil wouldn't that bacteria be beneficial to their growth? Isn't that the whole purpose of plants in a saltwater system? The main reason I tried Mangroves was to leave nutrients in the system, and eliminate Nitrate sand Phosphates. I have noticed my deep sand bed releasing bubbles from underneath. That has subsided. Fish are happy, SPS and LPS corals are happy. Should I expect a major problem in the future? BTW the sand bed in my dt and sump are over Three years old. HELP!!!
if I recall my biology 101, terrestrial anaerobes fix atmospheric nitrogen gas (N2) in order to incorporate it into amino acids that more advanced organisms need but cant make on their own. On land nitrogen is often the limiting factor, thats why fertilzers are mostly plant-usable forms of nitrogen.


in the marine environment, anaerobic deep sand beds regenerate nitrogen gas, that is likely what the bubbles are, along with sulfur gases, etc.


The 2 combined are the oversimplified global nitrogen cycle.

Mangroves do take up organic nutrients, but usually very slowly compared to algae. So slow that unless you have a Wally-amount of mangroves it probably doesnt make a big difference until the plants root extensively.

But what I was getting at was "old tank syndrome" when the 2+ year old DSB is blamed for the poor performance of a captive reef. Its when really experienced reefers just cant pinpoint the cause of nitrate spikes and the slow and steady decline of their mature system. The rationale is the DSB is like a landfill too full of nutrients and now the waste is leaching back into the system. When every other possible cause has been excluded and changing out the DSB resulted in rapid improvement, the diagnosis is "old tank syndrome."


http://aem.asm.org/content/68/3/1312.short
Production of N2 through Anaerobic Ammonium Oxidation Coupled to Nitrate Reduction in Marine Sediments
ABSTRACT
In the global nitrogen cycle, bacterial denitrification is recognized as the only quantitatively important process that converts fixed nitrogen to atmospheric nitrogen gas, N2, thereby influencing many aspects of ecosystem function and global biogeochemistry. However, we have found that a process novel to the marine nitrogen cycle, anaerobic oxidation of ammonium coupled to nitrate reduction, contributes substantially to N2 production in marine sediments. Incubations with 15N-labeled nitrate or ammonium demonstrated that during this process, N2 is formed through one-to-one pairing of nitrogen from nitrate and ammonium, which clearly separates the process from denitrification. Nitrite, which accumulated transiently, was likely the oxidant for ammonium, and the process is thus similar to the anammox process known from wastewater bioreactors. Anaerobic ammonium oxidation accounted for 24 and 67% of the total N2 production at two typical continental shelf sites, whereas it was detectable but insignificant relative to denitrification in a eutrophic coastal bay. However, rates of anaerobic ammonium oxidation were higher in the coastal sediment than at the deepest site and the variability in the relative contribution to N2 production between sites was related to large differences in rates of denitrification. Thus, the relative importance of anaerobic ammonium oxidation and denitrification in N2 production appears to be regulated by the availability of their reduced substrates. By shunting nitrogen directly from ammonium to N2, anaerobic ammonium oxidation promotes the removal of fixed nitrogen in the oceans. The process can explain ammonium deficiencies in anoxic waters and sediments, and it may contribute significantly to oceanic nitrogen budgets.
 
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#13
My thinking goes pretty much in line with your reply. I do have about 150+ mangroves in my system. About 75 with the roots suspended in a 300 gal sump, and the rest planted in a 65 gal tank in a deep sand/crushed coral bed. My intention is to allow the water rooted system to remain so the roots will only be limited to the size of the sump,and slowly thin out the planted tank. I have experimented in the past with planted mangroves in a confined space, and the root system more resembles a tap root rather than feeler roots. Growth was somewhat slower than expected with the plants becoming "root bound".
With my original setup (300 gal dt fowler and 300 gal sump) I cleaned my skimmer daily. the inside of the cup was coated with about .015 /.025 of muck depending on feeding. About 2 years ago, my wife had the bright idea of adding more lps and sps corals. I started looking into ways to help stabilize my tank. I added mangroves. I planted the 65 gal using substrate over a plenum. As my mangroves matured, my skimmer produced less and less. Last Nov. I removed my skimmer altogether.
Without knowing it, I guess i have somewhat created the production of bacterial denitrification. I think???
 
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#14
So i shut off the mangrove tank.... im gonna redo the mangroves and suspend them in the water. No more deep sand bed stuff. Just bought thin acrylic rods that im gonna use with zip ties and hold upright.

Phosphate actually went down 0.08 to 0.41.. dunno if thats conclusive..


Heres the tank currently.. with 50+ already in a separate tank...


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#18
Hey man... the mangroves i got from u didnt do as well as they should, not 'cause they're bad but 'cause they were suffocated and had no room when i shoved them into an already impacted system.. but im trying to resolve that right now...

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