serious discussion about flippers and sick fish sellers...
- Thread starter gumbii
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this is indeed a serious thread...
anyways... what rule or steps can one take to do this...? like, say i do have access to the wholesaler, and what would be a fair system to use that the sponsors will be okay with it..? or how about rules stopping them from selling... like a number system, or something... like, if they sell someone a sick fish, they lose amounts of threads per month or something...???
it's just sucks so bad that there are threads all the time popping up of people getting burned, and nothing happening to the seller... and well, the sponsors pay good money to have a subforum here, and when some dude with access to cheap fish starts flipping fish, it would get me mad too...
what are your guys thoughts and opinions on this...?
anyways... what rule or steps can one take to do this...? like, say i do have access to the wholesaler, and what would be a fair system to use that the sponsors will be okay with it..? or how about rules stopping them from selling... like a number system, or something... like, if they sell someone a sick fish, they lose amounts of threads per month or something...???
it's just sucks so bad that there are threads all the time popping up of people getting burned, and nothing happening to the seller... and well, the sponsors pay good money to have a subforum here, and when some dude with access to cheap fish starts flipping fish, it would get me mad too...
what are your guys thoughts and opinions on this...?
It would be more acceptable if they added value to the fish. Like actually quarantining or letting frags heal. Just about every fish I've gotten from a "shipment just in" sales has died.
At this point im more concerned about the health of the livestock than who im buying from.
If people are just constantly selling diseased fish though I'm pretty sure no one wants them around
At this point im more concerned about the health of the livestock than who im buying from.
If people are just constantly selling diseased fish though I'm pretty sure no one wants them around
Who is flipping fish, and who got burned? Wholesale fish go up for sale the day they come in and the markup on fish is so high because there is no guarantee. Sometimes the deals are great and some times the fish die from stress. This can be from reasons outside the wholesalers control. Shipping delays, temp control, or poor collection, the wholesalers still have to pay for the fish. I have been lucky enough to get to go a few times to the wholesale and while the prices are great, I know I am taking risk and quarantine to make sure I have no problems. Anyone who does not quarantine is taking huge risks as velvet has been going around way too much. With this said one of the other problems is compatability and lack of hiding places can start all your fish on a decline even in a healthy reef. This crazy hobby has some tough lessons and we all pay the price at times.
yeah but what about the local folks that have AWFW, red bugs, black bugs, planeria, bryopsis and other stuff that don't put it on their threads... i get what you are saying about being a responsible hobbyist... but what's to protect us from the dirty sailors out there...? why not say that; "i haz planeria, do you still wants?"...
we have to find out from other brave reefers that have our backs... i have put people on blast before over redbugs when they were first being discovered... it's good that nick and i forgot the other guy made it public about the sick stock...
we have to find out from other brave reefers that have our backs... i have put people on blast before over redbugs when they were first being discovered... it's good that nick and i forgot the other guy made it public about the sick stock...
it does have that... it has the feedback...
on the bmxmuseum forum, there's a huge feedback score like ebay there... i even have some positive feedback there... and if one guy has negative, hardly anyone will buy from him again... mostly because some BMX parts are clones or fake, and there are people trying to make a quick buck... so they will "shun" that one dude... they won't give them negative feedback unless he's really tried to burn them... it's a great system...
but that won't stop people here from flipping and selling infected stock...
on the bmxmuseum forum, there's a huge feedback score like ebay there... i even have some positive feedback there... and if one guy has negative, hardly anyone will buy from him again... mostly because some BMX parts are clones or fake, and there are people trying to make a quick buck... so they will "shun" that one dude... they won't give them negative feedback unless he's really tried to burn them... it's a great system...
but that won't stop people here from flipping and selling infected stock...
Great thread [MENTION=2546]gumbii[/MENTION]
the flipping has gotten pretty bad lately, most of the time I wonder why us sponsors are paying if the same guy I just saw at the wholesaler grabbing the same corals I just did post them for sale for free yet I have a monthly charge to my bank account to do the same.
I understand that you can post 3 sale threads per month as a member of this forum, but if the member post 30+ items for sale in one thread and continues to add things to the list, and constantly has a sale thread open...then why does 3 per month matter at that point, they are selling all month long non stop...cant recall who but just the other day I saw a sale thread for coral on a known flipper who I know has access to wholesalers and the thread was nearly 6 months old yet new items were still being added, and sold/bought
don't get me wrong I have no problem with anyone selling frags here and there, or chopping up colonies, breaking down tanks etc...its the SAME guys over and over several times a month posting tons of stuff for sale...If you do it consistently for profit, I believe its called a business
this was the worst year for our shop ever (and hearing from other shop owners, worst in 25+ years), and people who pop up and do that make it worse on those doing it as a profession...just think how many shops closed this year and last
just my .02 cents from what I have seen
the flipping has gotten pretty bad lately, most of the time I wonder why us sponsors are paying if the same guy I just saw at the wholesaler grabbing the same corals I just did post them for sale for free yet I have a monthly charge to my bank account to do the same.
I understand that you can post 3 sale threads per month as a member of this forum, but if the member post 30+ items for sale in one thread and continues to add things to the list, and constantly has a sale thread open...then why does 3 per month matter at that point, they are selling all month long non stop...cant recall who but just the other day I saw a sale thread for coral on a known flipper who I know has access to wholesalers and the thread was nearly 6 months old yet new items were still being added, and sold/bought
don't get me wrong I have no problem with anyone selling frags here and there, or chopping up colonies, breaking down tanks etc...its the SAME guys over and over several times a month posting tons of stuff for sale...If you do it consistently for profit, I believe its called a business
this was the worst year for our shop ever (and hearing from other shop owners, worst in 25+ years), and people who pop up and do that make it worse on those doing it as a profession...just think how many shops closed this year and last
just my .02 cents from what I have seen
Iv bought fish from fellow reefers and know someone who has bought from me all have been established fish, sometimes they have died. Maybe iv been had but I don't ever see a trend from anyone iv had problems with. Fish die, it's hard to tell why sometimes and it is what it is. This one case that happened to schnitzel is clearly a case of wholesale buying and then Dumping. But for the most part I hope that fellow reefers continue to do what Nick did, he was screwed, and he didn't keep it to himself. That's the best way to keep things on track. I can't see how anyone would be able to prove ever that someone is flipping, sure people get sloppy and it catches up to them but mostly I'm sure it's hard to prove. I bet No one even bought the fish he claimed pending. Probably just a ploy to make people think he's got people who trust him.
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For hobbyists, these aquatic creatures are pets. I hope others can agree with me that most sale threads from hobbyists aren't to make a buck but due to reasons such as relocation, change in personal status, incompatibility issues, equipment failure, and simply the livestock has outgrown the tank. Therefore, it should be pretty easy to see if someone is really trying to re-home or simply trying to flip for profit. And to deal with the lack of interest due to bad rating, the easiest way is to drop the price and also become a responsible seller. That's just the nature of online sales, which highly rely on reputation and Every deal counts equally.
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+1 to what JDEllis said. I have seen people post more than 3 threads per month & no one ever says anything or does anything about it i always wondered what sponsors thought about this, i think we should strictly enforce the 3 sales thread per month & maybe even limit the itemsper thread? Unless its stated as a "tank break down" which would be understandable .
How about 2 sticky threads in the for sale sections, bold and red so everyone sees them.
One informing and urging people to use the buyer/seller ratings on this site. Personally, I didn't know the function existed until I received a score, now I leave a rating for every transaction. This might even help us see if someone is selling a boat load or live and dry goods if they get rated for every sale.
The second a beware or do not buy from sticky. You screw multiple people and get put on the blacklist. Put an admin in charge so people can't falsely accuse each other.
Hard to beat your trusted local reef shop, even if it does cost you a few more bucks.
One informing and urging people to use the buyer/seller ratings on this site. Personally, I didn't know the function existed until I received a score, now I leave a rating for every transaction. This might even help us see if someone is selling a boat load or live and dry goods if they get rated for every sale.
The second a beware or do not buy from sticky. You screw multiple people and get put on the blacklist. Put an admin in charge so people can't falsely accuse each other.
Hard to beat your trusted local reef shop, even if it does cost you a few more bucks.
yeah, i've broken down 3 tanks and have had a thread containing more than 50 types of corals/items...
but it was evident i was breaking down... i had FTS and well, it was in my living room... seeing these people with fish that's for sale in a light blue background like the LFS urks me... why would you house a fish in an ugly setup if it's truly your pet...??? i don't get it... gravel and plastic plants..??? wtf...?
for me, fish are not pets... they're decoration... the whole point of reefing for me was and still kind of is collecting corals... fish were always just to keep the kids or people interested in my tank... if they died, oh well, i'll buy another one...
but it was evident i was breaking down... i had FTS and well, it was in my living room... seeing these people with fish that's for sale in a light blue background like the LFS urks me... why would you house a fish in an ugly setup if it's truly your pet...??? i don't get it... gravel and plastic plants..??? wtf...?
for me, fish are not pets... they're decoration... the whole point of reefing for me was and still kind of is collecting corals... fish were always just to keep the kids or people interested in my tank... if they died, oh well, i'll buy another one...
I think we should focus on keeping members educated on how to sniff out wholesale flippers. I figure the main reason why members would gravitate towards those FS threads is because they want an established fish. But they wind up getting duped. Maybe a warning sticky on the top of the fs section with tips on how to spot a flipper. In turn hopefully these flippers start to get burned with unmovable inventory and quit.
Frag Stars? Many have become legit businesses, and while competition is frustrating in a slow economy we all have to eat. I see the same people posting stuff up for sale and wonder how they get away without sponsoring the forum. I know on RC if a sponsor tells on someone they know has wholesale axis they get a no more selling warning. Maybe a non sight sponsor can have 1 sale thread a month up to 4 per year maximum? Those that have the gift to grow coral are going to sell and trade and propegation is what these sales should be for, not for chopping. Nobody likes moderation yet those that take advantage should lose their selling privledge. So Mr. The Man how about 5 complaints and you lose your selling privledge for 6 months, or become a sponsor?
On selling stuff when you know you have something, shame on you! For those that did not know do the right thing and let people know. Those that have not been outed should be! This hobby is like sex in the 90's you should not trust anyone and dip every coral! If SPS they go in my quarantine for a couple months because I have had AEFW and I will never have it in my big tank!
On selling stuff when you know you have something, shame on you! For those that did not know do the right thing and let people know. Those that have not been outed should be! This hobby is like sex in the 90's you should not trust anyone and dip every coral! If SPS they go in my quarantine for a couple months because I have had AEFW and I will never have it in my big tank!
I also feel In terms of people selling sick fish, shame on them but as a buyer you should be watching them feed and behavior before you take the specimen. It's ok to commit to buying something and not buying it once you see issues. Even Nick admitted that was his fault. We have a responsibility as a community to broadcast scammers and flippers, but also that doesn't mean there aren't deals to be had.
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