Skimmer technology what it was to what it is

[gcarroll]

Although those tests showed that all the skimmers roughly removed the same amount of organics, the test merely shows that there are limits to what a skimmer can remove. The part of the story that no one seems to talk about is that some skimmers removed the given amount of organics faster than others.

Since they all remove the same over time IMO the skimmer that removes it the fastest is actually better. Also the majority of the skimmers were not optimal sized skimmers nor equal sized skimmers to their competitors.

 

[rayray]

i agree that a skimmer that skims more quickly is better, but since DOCs are "fuel" for a skimmer, the quicker it skims the sooner its stops skimming bacause there is not enough left to skim. Then you could feed the fish and coral more. this fits into my concept of rapid import, rapid export for reef tanks; also, captive reef fish and coral are either growing or dying- there is NO maintaining. this does not guarantee that the faster skimmer is more energy efficient or that the pump & design are more durable over time. And its hard to size a skimmer until its actually plugged into your system. IMO unless its performing like i described above, its too big or too small regardless of what the salesman says.

Although those tests showed that all the skimmers roughly removed the same amount of organics, the test merely shows that there are limits to what a skimmer can remove. The part of the story that no one seems to talk about is that some skimmers removed the given amount of organics faster than others.

Since they all remove the same over time IMO the skimmer that removes it the fastest is actually better. Also the majority of the skimmers were not optimal sized skimmers nor equal sized skimmers to their competitors.

 

[SchnitzelReef]

Nice read!

 

[gcarroll]

i agree that a skimmer that skims more quickly is better, but since DOCs are "fuel" for a skimmer, the quicker it skims the sooner its stops skimming bacause there is not enough left to skim. Then you could feed the fish and coral more. this fits into my concept of rapid import, rapid export for reef tanks; also, captive reef fish and coral are either growing or dying- there is NO maintaining. this does not guarantee that the faster skimmer is more energy efficient or that the pump & design are more durable over time. And its hard to size a skimmer until its actually plugged into your system. IMO unless its performing like i described above, its too big or too small regardless of what the salesman says.

I always size a skimmer above the max that I would ever need for that tank. IMO it is impossible to over skim. Also I believe that a skimmer does more than remove organics. I actually place importance on this other things.

 

[pgr11]

I always size a skimmer above the max that I would ever need for that tank. IMO it is impossible to over skim. Also I believe that a skimmer does more than remove organics. I actually place importance on this other things.

Could you elaborate more on the 'other things"

 

[rayray]

IMO a skimmer is too big if it cant even force bubbles out of the neck. That means you have too few organics. the skimmer is too small if it keeps producing endless skimmate. people always say "my skimmer produces 4 gallons of skim per day, 24/7/365!"... well have you considered going up to the next size so that at some point your skimmer will not be producing skimmate? another way of doing that is when you add a refugium and your skimmer suddenly stops skimming youve reached that point. like i said, IMO a reasonable endpoint of a skimmer is when it sucks out so much crap that it stops skimming, then you can feed more, then the fishes and coral are fatter and get fewer diseases.

I just posted an old link to an experiment that determined what youre pulling out in skimmate. is it good to loose all those inorganics, including bicarb and salts that youre paying good money in the form of reef salt mixes? if a skimmer is a filter then it should take out bad and leave good- but does it do that well? or do most people just throw a lot of money into a skimmer because its less exhausting and impart more stability than water changes? How about a mature refugium? these take years of reefing to understand and lots of effort, you cant buy a red/white/european fuge off the shelf.

and if you mean oxygenating the reef, there are better ways such as an ozone reactor supplied by pressurized industrial grade oxygen. 1atmosphere of air is only 21% O2, which has an oxygen partial pressure of only 6x that dissolved in seawater, when you hit it with ozone and pressureized 90% O2 the dissolved oxygen and ORP are really high. but refilling an oxygen tank along with a CO2 is a pain in the neck. There were even air injection devices like what spinner used to make. but alas, these are also a PITA and that is why a skimmer is a good compromise for most reefers.

 

[pgr11]

IMO a skimmer is too big if it cant even force bubbles out of the neck. That means you have too few organics. the skimmer is too small if it keeps producing endless skimmate. people always say "my skimmer produces 4 gallons of skim per day, 24/7/365!"... well have you considered going up to the next size so that at some point your skimmer will not be producing skimmate? another way of doing that is when you add a refugium and your skimmer suddenly stops skimming youve reached that point. like i said, IMO a reasonable endpoint of a skimmer is when it sucks out so much crap that it stops skimming, then you can feed more, then the fishes and coral are fatter and get fewer diseases.

I just posted an old link to an experiment that determined what youre pulling out in skimmate. is it good to loose all those inorganics, including bicarb and salts that youre paying good money in the form of reef salt mixes? if a skimmer is a filter then it should take out bad and leave good- but does it do that well? or do most people just throw a lot of money into a skimmer because its less exhausting and impart more stability than water changes? How about a mature refugium? these take years of reefing to understand and lots of effort, you cant buy a red/white/european fuge off the shelf.

and if you mean oxygenating the reef, there are better ways such as an ozone reactor supplied by pressurized industrial grade oxygen. 1atmosphere of air is only 21% O2, which has an oxygen partial pressure of only 6x that dissolved in seawater, when you hit it with ozone and pressureized 90% O2 the dissolved oxygen and ORP are really high. but refilling an oxygen tank along with a CO2 is a pain in the neck. There were even air injection devices like what spinner used to make. but alas, these are also a PITA and that is why a skimmer is a good compromise for most reefers.

So you prefer your skimmer to stop skimming at some point and then as you feed or produce more waste start skimming again correct? So as not to strip the tank completely of organics allowing your corals to still feed. Am I understanding you correctly? If that's the case what about the thought of only running the skimmer for a certain amount of time? I know some that only run it a so many hours a day or just every other day. Do you see advantages to this?

 

[rayray]

i aimed my comments at sps tanks where low nutrients is the goal. my 10" neck SRO 6000 skimmer stops skimming sometimes, but there are still DOCs there. If i use my tiny tunze comline it stills pull pulls out skim. for LPS & espcially z/p/soties tanks I see how this may not be so good and it may be good to continuously skim and feed. alternatively, many guys with NPS coral totally pollute their tank with food and then do >50% water changes several times per week and have nice tanks without a skimmer.

ive never been a fan of turning the skimmer off because with larger skimmers it takes while to build up the foam, and there is so much water volume in the skimmer body that it messes up my sump / ato. but to answer your question, i want the skimmer to stop skimming which tells me the tank is clean enough to increase feedings. as fish and coral grow their feeding requirements go up, just like high density sps tank need more calcium and carbonate than most reefers realize, same with carbon input requirements.

So you prefer your skimmer to stop skimming at some point and then as you feed or produce more waste start skimming again correct? So as not to strip the tank completely of organics allowing your corals to still feed. Am I understanding you correctly? If that's the case what about the thought of only running the skimmer for a certain amount of time? I know some that only run it a so many hours a day or just every other day. Do you see advantages to this?

 

[lowbudget]

Also turn off the skimmer less oxygen in the tank.

 

[lowbudget]

I always size a skimmer above the max that I would ever need for that tank. IMO it is impossible to over skim. Also I believe that a skimmer does more than remove organics. I actually place importance on this other things.

It is impossible to over skim.

 

[pgr11]

I would think you would have much larger pH swings turning it on and off.

Sanh why do you feel its impossible to over skim?

 

[Liquidgold]

Found this neat article on skimmer performance saying that the new tech features such as bubble plate and cone design doesn't really increase efficiency. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

 

[rayray]

i think the laws of physics & chemistry just limit how many bubbles you can make with the range of DOC & charged ions in the concentrations found in reef tanks at 1 atmosphere of pressure. Somethings you could do would be to increase the DOCs, increase the salts, make DOCs more available with ozone, stabilize bubbles with detergents, or form the bubbles in lower pressure / partial vacuum.

 

[Spinner]

Mace, a protein skimmer is an open system, so I dont know how this could be attached to a closed loop? give this noob some of your secrets! In terms of the design, a new one with a purpose built efficient pump, bubble plate and cone design seem to be the rage, as long as its red and white and european. The pump must look as sexy out of the water as it does wet, unlike me

Well its not because of brains that I figured out how to plumb a skimmer into a close loop system Most of the ideas come from to much time on my hands or day dreaming.........
My first plan was to have air driven skimmer on each end of DT that would be a second back up drain to feed close loop pumps. This would allow me to feed skimmers straight from tank then drain to pumps. Then I started thinking HEY if I add a venture to the skimmers in lieu of air and feed them off my close loop manifold it will be a semi close loop design. The skimmers are feed from DT drain to feed close loop pump then manifold back to skimmer thru venture. 1/2" venture with 2" drain at bottom of skimmer now only leaving THIS.....what happen if 2" drain clogs?????? easy fix.....at the top of skimmers neck install 1/2" drain line back to DT. This would allow skimmer to not overflow and no skimmer cup crap would be able to go back into aquarium water............
OK where is the hole in this plan my fellow hobbiest..............What's up rayray!!!!

 

[gcarroll]

Could you elaborate more on the 'other things"

You and Sahn basically nailed it. keeping ph and oxygen/ORP levels up. As rayray said there are more efficient ways of doing this. I will also state that organics removal can be better done using a ton of carbon!