Tank dilemma: Push through, reboot, or remove+scrub?

Gedxin

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#1
I started with dry rock in July 2021, so we’re at 9 months. Added coral within the first month. I have a skimmer, if it's on 24/7 I zero out my nutrients pretty quick - possibly it's oversized (Nyos 120.) So I turn it off for ~4-6 hours a day. I feed twice a day, pellets in the morning and a half frozen cube plus different pellets in the evening. 4 fish. It's really difficult to maintain non-zero nutrients. When I raised my nutes to 5-10nitrates and .1 phophates (via liquid dosing), my dinos were all but gone, but the GHA was the worst its ever been. There's also a non-trivial amount of turf/sand algae, and some cyano. I siphon out as much as I can during bi-weekly water changes (I also did a bout of no water changes for a month back in February when I really started fighting dinos.)

There are three main issues with the tank. Persistent and rampant hair algae, dinos (I've run a UV for nearly two months since finding dinos) and inability to grow acropora. I understand the acro troubles seem to be correlated with the maturity of the tank, and there may be nothing to be done about that other than waiting. As for hair algae and dinos - I'm constantly scrubbing the rocks or turkey basting dinos off them. I've tried removing the rocks and brushing them, but within a week or so the algae is back. The algae scrubbing is exhausting and the corals hate it because they inevitably get bumped, accidentally brushed or GHA stuck to them as it floats around the tank before getting sucked in the overflow (I sometimes also siphon out directly.)

Many corals are doing well in my system: LPS (torches, hammer, lobo, duncan, favia), softies (zoas and mushrooms), and SPS (two digitatas, pavona) and a bubble tip anemone. I have a somewhat sizable clean up crew: nassarius, astraea, nerites, conch, bristleworms, and bumblebee snails. Tangently related - any CUC I add, a large percentage will eventually perish. For example, on two separate occasions during the past two months I’ve added zebra turbo snails, smooth shell snails, two conchs, two emerald crabs - and all have died, some quickly and others taking ~1-2 weeks. 25 asterea snails were added and ~15 have survived. I run G.A.C in my overflow and have a small reactor on order (so I can utilize the sump for GAC instead of one side overflow.) My last ICP test about a month ago shows no metals or toxins.

Par at top of rocks is 250. I reduced my lighting significantly for about 2 months with a slow ramp back up to 250 par. Whites were at 20% for half the day and 0% for the rest. Whites today after the slow 2mo acclimation are now at 40% and 20% respectively,

I’m a bit at my wits end and curious what approach people would suggest taking.
A) Stay the course, continue the scrubbing, regular water changes, also try to maintain a detectable level of nutrients to ‘beat’ dinos.
B) A few over at R2R recommend a rip-clean where you take EVERYTHING out of the tank and scrub with hydrogen peroxide. Also clean/wash the sand.
C) reboot, move everything out of the tank to a temporary, buy some live rock, cycle, move it all back in.

Suggestions/questions/comments appreciated.
 
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#3
Battling Dino’s since February? 2 things either your UV isn’t powerful enough or you’re battling with the wrong method. There’s a few different types of Dino’s but they fall into 2 treatment methods, UV or silica dosing. You’d have to get a sample under a microscope to determine what type of Dino’s you have. If you have Osteoropsis you could be causing more harm than good because they are super toxic.

Restarting the tank will be hard because you have livestock. If you have a second tank you’ll have to keep that livestock in it for about 3 months. If you don’t, get a bin and look into the zeovit 14 day cycle.

Trying to correct the issue will also take time. Bacteria dosing, carbon dosing, and proper identification of the Dino’s for proper treatment.

Are you sure it’s GHA and not byropsis?

I’m facing the same choice with all the aptasia I have in my tank


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JohnBRZ

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#4
I would go with option A, stop scrubbing the rock and let your CUC do it's thing. how long do you run your light? a little algae is a good thing as long as it doesn't cover your corals. have you think about adding a refugium or algae scrubber?
 

Smite

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#5
I've been battling issues all year and it does suck. If it's not bryopsis then manual removal with the proper CUC is the way to go. Your issue right now is dinos will kill your cuc. Once you get them identified and taken care of by the proper treatment then you'll need to start from the beginning.

If raising your nutrients got rid of you dinos the first time then I'd do that again, personally. Once the hair algae starts up again really dedicate yourself to removing it. Set aside 30 minutes a night until you have it clean. Bottle brushes and hemostats work great if it's long.

Then start adding the proper CUC in. In my experience nothing takes care of it until it's mowed down and manageable. I was able to turn my 75 UNS around and it was when I truly dedicated myself to removal and got the appropriate cuc and fish to help manage it from there.

I'm in the battle right now with my current set up. My issue is bryopsis keeps popping up. It's a pain in the arse for sure.
 

ReefBoi95

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#6
I've been battling issues all year and it does suck. If it's not bryopsis then manual removal with the proper CUC is the way to go. Your issue right now is dinos will kill your cuc. Once you get them identified and taken care of by the proper treatment then you'll need to start from the beginning.

If raising your nutrients got rid of you dinos the first time then I'd do that again, personally. Once the hair algae starts up again really dedicate yourself to removing it. Set aside 30 minutes a night until you have it clean. Bottle brushes and hemostats work great if it's long.

Then start adding the proper CUC in. In my experience nothing takes care of it until it's mowed down and manageable. I was able to turn my 75 UNS around and it was when I truly dedicated myself to removal and got the appropriate cuc and fish to help manage it from there.

I'm in the battle right now with my current set up. My issue is bryopsis keeps popping up. It's a pain in the arse for sure.
Hey Smite, how is your battle with bryopsis going? Im going through that right now. It is a pain in the a** indeed. I’d been trying the hydroxide method. It killed bryopsis for a few days…but they kept on coming back. Lol. How are you fighting it? What kind of cuc do you think would help? Can you share your your experience?
 
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#7
More details on the system? Tank size, water change frequency, running socks?

I know you mentioned reading 0 , 0 but when you do begin to see nitrate what are the numbers and what are the phosphate levels as well.

I have been and still am struggling with very similar issues my tank is about a year and half old. I have chalked it up to nutrient imbalance of sort. Not necessarily to high or to low but not the correct ratio.
 

Gedxin

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#8
Course one will work. Just patience. Buy a few good algae eaters (sea hair, turbos, abalone,.....)
Yeah, I've spent a couple hundred over the last many months on CUC...at least half of everything has died - I'm assuming because of the persistent dinos.

Battling Dino’s since February? 2 things either your UV isn’t powerful enough or you’re battling with the wrong method. There’s a few different types of Dino’s but they fall into 2 treatment methods, UV or silica dosing. You’d have to get a sample under a microscope to determine what type of Dino’s you have. If you have Osteoropsis you could be causing more harm than good because they are super toxic.

Restarting the tank will be hard because you have livestock. If you have a second tank you’ll have to keep that livestock in it for about 3 months. If you don’t, get a bin and look into the zeovit 14 day cycle.

Trying to correct the issue will also take time. Bacteria dosing, carbon dosing, and proper identification of the Dino’s for proper treatment.

Are you sure it’s GHA and not byropsis?

I’m facing the same choice with all the aptasia I have in my tank


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I've suspected an undersived UV might be a problem. I'm using the 9W Green Killing Machine, and it's in the back of 1 of 2 overflows. This is a nano tank so I was trying an option that was next to invisible. I have ~27 gallons of water after 22g display + 10g sump and rock displacement. 3w per 9gal of water is the recommended rate. Here's a few photos I took with a microscope back Jan 29:
PXL_20220130_050321790 (1).jpg

PXL_20220130_043646858.jpg

PXL_20220130_043540005 (2).jpg


Looks like ostreopsis to me? I've read UV is the best treatment. Do I just need to go bigger? Ugh, is there any aesthetically pleasing option?

Are you sure it’s GHA and not byropsis?
I'm 99% sure it's GHA. here's a photo of what it looks like taken today, you can see the mats of hair algae on the top rock (looks red.) There's also some cyano on top of the hair algae in spots. I siphoned a lot off during my water chang etoday. I'll try to get a shot tomorrow of what it looks like under whites.
PXL_20220419_183822404.jpg


I would go with option A, stop scrubbing the rock and let your CUC do it's thing. how long do you run your light? a little algae is a good thing as long as it doesn't cover your corals. have you think about adding a refugium or algae scrubber?
My CUC unfortunately cannot keep up with the algae outbreak. I recently bought ~40 more snails and I'd say about half of them are now dead. I think maybe I have to fix the dino issue before I try another round of CUC?

I run my lights from 8:15am to 6:15pm (10 hour today), 4hr at max 40% whites, 4hr max 20% whites, ramp ups and down with an hour of moonlight included at the end.

Some algae definitely covers my corals. It's all over my GSP and prevents it from opening sometimes. If I scrub the GSP, it takes a week for it to recover and then the GHA is nearly back already.

I've been exploring an algae scrubber, but due to my 'nano' setup, things are pretty full in my sump. I'm planning to screw in a reactor in the top right of the photo here.
PXL_20220421_040113066 (1).jpg
 

Smite

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#9
Hey Smite, how is your battle with bryopsis going? Im going through that right now. It is a pain in the a** indeed. I’d been trying the hydroxide method. It killed bryopsis for a few days…but they kept on coming back. Lol. How are you fighting it? What kind of cuc do you think would help? Can you share your your experience?
Not great. I dosed flux (Flux RX) and while all my coral faired well I let my nutrients drop down and had dinos pop up and called the treatment early. Now my dinos are receeding, I have nutrients but I've noticed a few tuffs of bryopsis coming back. I'm hoping one more dose with my eyes on my nutrients will knock it out for good.
 
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#10
Yup. Osteoropsis. Your cleanup crew will die if they eat this. If you can get a 25w or so. You will have to run the feed pump in your display as close to the sand as possible. It’ll be an eye sore but it’s only for 2 weeks.


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Gedxin

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#11
More details on the system? Tank size, water change frequency, running socks?

I know you mentioned reading 0 , 0 but when you do begin to see nitrate what are the numbers and what are the phosphate levels as well.

I have been and still am struggling with very similar issues my tank is about a year and half old. I have chalked it up to nutrient imbalance of sort. Not necessarily to high or to low but not the correct ratio.
Size: 32g total (22g + 10g sump.)
Water changes: 4G (16%?) every 1-2 weeks (usually 2)
Running filter floss: 2x floss pads changing every 2 days sometimes 1 day depending on how much GHA is clogging them

Here are my params. I'm sitting at 9.9nitrate and .18phosphates before my water change today. As I said, it's been a struggle to maintain nutrients :(
Charts:
tank stats.png
 

Smite

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#12
@Gedxin

I have a Vecton 400, it's 18w. It looks cool but is rather large. The good part is it screws to a wall or stand. I can take measurements if you're interested in borrowing it. I'm in Garden Grove, 92845 if you want to give it a go. Bulb is still good, 1/2" inlet and outlet.
 
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#13
year 1 of a dry rock tank seems to generally suck so don't feel bad, especially if the measure is acro success within that time period. you also mentioned running 250 par at the top of the rocks, but lowered the lights significantly for awhile? that's probably not going to make acros too happy. have u tried a 3 day blackout?

dinos suck, if it makes you feel better i managed to get them twice in a year lol. i tend to not use UV to beat them, i just try to add biodiversity and wait. time fixes a lot of issues in tanks

i certainly wouldn't consider a restart at this point because you'll probably just fight the same battles in the restart. the restart will be needed when the GSP takes over and you can't get it out :D
 

Gedxin

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@Gedxin

I have a Vecton 400, it's 18w. It looks cool but is rather large. The good part is it screws to a wall or stand. I can take measurements if you're interested in borrowing it. I'm in Garden Grove, 92845 if you want to give it a go. Bulb is still good, 1/2" inlet and outlet.
Thank you for the offer, I'm definitely interested, but I wonder if I should shell out for my own so that I can always have it on hand when I inevitably get dinos again. Hmm, how do you like the Vecton overall?
 

Gedxin

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year 1 of a dry rock tank seems to generally suck so don't feel bad, especially if the measure is acro success within that time period. you also mentioned running 250 par at the top of the rocks, but lowered the lights significantly for awhile? that's probably not going to make acros too happy. have u tried a 3 day blackout?

dinos suck, if it makes you feel better i managed to get them twice in a year lol. i tend to not use UV to beat them, i just try to add biodiversity and wait. time fixes a lot of issues in tanks

i certainly wouldn't consider a restart at this point because you'll probably just fight the same battles in the restart. the restart will be needed when the GSP takes over and you can't get it out :D
Yeah, I agree with the lowering of lights likely causing stress. I think it caused a few to brown out and then STN. But it could also be related to tank maturity and not lights, maybe both? Hard to tell. I haven't tried a blackout of any sort. I'm not sure what we're solving with it - I've heard it may help dinos but they usually come back. Not against it, but it seems very stressful for the coral.
 

Smite

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#16
Thank you for the offer, I'm definitely interested, but I wonder if I should shell out for my own so that I can always have it on hand when I inevitably get dinos again. Hmm, how do you like the Vecton overall?
Served me well for the last 5 years but now it’s undersized for my system, I bought a 57w.
Worked great on my last 75g. It’s just sitting there so grab it, see if it works out for you. I posted it for 50 bucks beginning of the year with no bites so I’m not worried about it. If it doesn’t work for your application just pass it along. Quality unit though. I’ll take some measurements and shoot them to you via pm.
 

Dipan00

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#17
I just dealth with dinos and UV for the ones I had was insane. I used 2 55w Jebao UV. My system is close to 300g of water volume. Kill your dinos of first and then get trochus a bunch of trochus snails so they dont die. I was having the same issue. Side effect of UV was all my acros are now gettin happier each day. I actually love UV now. My sand is so white you would think its a brand new tank. UV are big and ugly but will never run a system without one.
 

Smite

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I just dealth with dinos and UV for the ones I had was insane. I used 2 55w Jebao UV. My system is close to 300g of water volume. Kill your dinos of first and then get trochus a bunch of trochus snails so they dont die. I was having the same issue. Side effect of UV was all my acros are now gettin happier each day. I actually love UV now. My sand is so white you would think its a brand new tank. UV are big and ugly but will never run a system without one.
This is the unit I'm looking at now, maybe one of the 55W piggied off my 57w aqua.
 
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#19
Yeah, I agree with the lowering of lights likely causing stress. I think it caused a few to brown out and then STN. But it could also be related to tank maturity and not lights, maybe both? Hard to tell. I haven't tried a blackout of any sort. I'm not sure what we're solving with it - I've heard it may help dinos but they usually come back. Not against it, but it seems very stressful for the coral.
yeah i mean who knows with acros. even when things are going well, it seems a couple will be mad for whatever reason

the idea is just to give the non-photosynthetic organisms a chance to outcompete dinos which are photosynthetic, but tbh with the UV option smite is offering that's the route i'd go. idk how much of a stressor it is for a blackout, but fixing with UV is definitely ideal

there are some dino strains that UV doesn't work on, fortunately i believe ostreopsis is not one of them (y)
 
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#20
Lowering light intensity and blackouts won’t work. Sure, Dino’s will appear to have died off because they will free float and as soon as you turn the lights back on, or ramp them up, they will be back.

Osteoropsis is the most toxic strain of dinoflagellates. You don’t want them to free float because they can cause lots of damage. Same with coolia. That’s why UV is the best way to beat these 2 strains. The UV won’t kill them but it will damage them and will make some cells sterile so they can’t reproduce. That’s why it takes 2 weeks to beat them. Eventually the cells will be so damaged that they will not be able to reproduce.

Consider dosing live phytoplankton. Full disclosure, I grow and sell live phytoplankton. Not trying to make a sale here. There’s lots of options out there just make sure it’s live.


Like others have said, take care of the Dino’s first then go after the algae issue.


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