Old tank syndrome

[watchguy123]

What did you take from the article?

The article is from 2006, is it possible that reefkeeping has changed in 7 years?

Yes I believe drastically.

1). Internet-- the dissemination of information, examples would be like the way this thread is functioning on this forum, socalireefs.com as well as the big brothers of this forum. Look at all the categories to read, explore and post on and the number of contributing members

2) equipment-- skimmers have changed a lot, I don't know how long ATO have been around for salinity, then there are dosers; testers and testing kits, online tank calculators

3) nutrient export--modifications and simplicity on algae turf scrubbers, I also don't know how long chaeto and refugiums have been around, then bare bottom vs DSB, carbon dosing

There are lots more changes I'm sure, but my old guy syndrome is starting to kick in

 

[solitude127]

people with their dsb back in the days all your funk suppose to sink down there and gets processed thats why you get all that funky color in the dsb. either it dont get processed fast enough in the sandbed and has no where to go but up then poof. old tank syndrome.

Couldn't the theory be applied to live rock? Isn't that why you want more porous rock?

 

[solitude127]

Yes I believe drastically.

1). Internet-- the dissemination of information, examples would be like the way this thread is functioning on this forum, socalireefs.com as well as the big brothers of this forum. Look at all the categories to read, explore and post on and the number of contributing members

2) equipment-- skimmers have changed a lot, I don't know how long ATO have been around for salinity, then there are dosers; testers and testing kits, online tank calculators

3) nutrient export--modifications and simplicity on algae turf scrubbers, I also don't know how long chaeto and refugiums have been around, then bare bottom vs DSB, carbon dosing

There are lots more changes I'm sure, but my old guy syndrome is starting to kick in

I wonder if the development of synthetic salt made a huge difference. 10 years ago, how many different synthetic salt manufacturers were there?

 

[solitude127]

Any other insight on this topic?

 

[cymaster007]

From the article i read in coral magazine they recommended we switch out a small amount of sand/rock on regular intervals to replace the "sponge" effect the rock and sand has. ive heard of tanks crashing from a huge sand bed disruption event. I have moved some old rocks before and you can see they are totally black on the bottom and reek of sulphur. So i am a strong believer that a DSB that is never refreshed is essentially a ticking time-bomb for OTS to kick in.

 

[lowbudget]

old fart theory like mine.

From the article i read in coral magazine they recommended we switch out a small amount of sand/rock on regular intervals to replace the "sponge" effect the rock and sand has. ive heard of tanks crashing from a huge sand bed disruption event. I have moved some old rocks before and you can see they are totally black on the bottom and reek of sulphur. So i am a strong believer that a DSB that is never refreshed is essentially a ticking time-bomb for OTS to kick in.

 

[lowbudget]

Couldn't the theory be applied to live rock? Isn't that why you want more porous rock?

live rock is a kind of filtration of course we want more porous rock. yeah never thought about it. but its true. people who sell their fish only with live rock to people building a reef. with the high po4 in those rock you will have a world of pain.

 

[Surgical]

live rock is a kind of filtration of course we want more porous rock. yeah never thought about it. but its true. people who sell their fish only with live rock to people building a reef. with the high po4 in those rock you will have a world of pain.

I agree with sanh. Ive gotten rocks from people that were c9mpletely black on the inside. I dont remember the forum but one person was saying you need massive amounts of flow over the live rock for it to export phosphates efficiently and keep the rock from getting filled in with detritus. Same goes for dsb. It needs a lot of flow, which people often neglect under the sump.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Clockwork John]

Is that my problem? Is that why my nitrate and phosphate won't come down no matter what I try? When I set up my tank a couple years ago, I used rock and sand from established tanks, combined with some (maybe 20%) new rock, AND I have a DSB in my sump... Hmmm... That would explain a lot.

 

[wickedfish]

One reason I don't believe in Mike's theory is, if I constantly use a phosphate remover how can my rock become saturated? If I have equipment, media and animals that consume available waste why would my live rock reach saturation?

Also on DSB's if you don't have inverts stirring it constantly I'm sure you would be doomed. Just last night I left my lights on an extra 2 hours and it looked like night of the living dead part 2. All sorts of different guys coming out of the sand to hunt for food because I've been feeding the tank less.

Now if a guy is a cheap skate and doesn't use Gfo or another phosphate remover along with a nitrate remover, I do believe rock can get saturated. Btw your clam is my nitrate sponge.

 

[Imsosavvy]

This is definitely a great thread and very interesting subject. Thanks to everyone for the comments you've already posted and the links you supplied. My question is this; What is technically considered a Dsb? I've read conflicting stuff online, ranging from 3in and up to 6in and up. I'm only asking because my tank is a weird situation. Because of my maroon clown aquascaping herself, I have areas in my 28g nano where the sandbed is only 1-2 in deep, but other parts stacked higher, the deepest being about 4 inches. Do you think I'm in danger of any disruptions due to sand being moved/sifted in that 4 inch area. This whole topic is a bit up in the air for me, and I've done dilligent research but still have no concrete idea.

 

[Imsosavvy]

One reason I don't believe in Mike's theory is, if I constantly use a phosphate remover how can my rock become saturated? If I have equipment, media and animals that consume available waste why would my live rock reach saturation?

Also on DSB's if you don't have inverts stirring it constantly I'm sure you would be doomed. Just last night I left my lights on an extra 2 hours and it looked like night of the living dead part 2. All sorts of different guys coming out of the sand to hunt for food because I've been feeding the tank less.

Now if a guy is a cheap skate and doesn't use Gfo or another phosphate remover along with a nitrate remover, I do believe rock can get saturated. Btw your clam is my nitrate sponge.

This is a really interesting and clever point as well wicked. I use gfo in a tlf reactor as well, so if that excess po4 is being removed from the water column by the reactor, how much could the rock really become saturated? That's a good point. While the gfo obviously won't pull every last micron out, and obviously the other nutrients won't be pulled out either, that I understand. Who knows man, interesting stuff.

 

[lowbudget]

what if someone does use all the stuff you mention but just not enough.

One reason I don't believe in Mike's theory is, if I constantly use a phosphate remover how can my rock become saturated? If I have equipment, media and animals that consume available waste why would my live rock reach saturation?

Also on DSB's if you don't have inverts stirring it constantly I'm sure you would be doomed. Just last night I left my lights on an extra 2 hours and it looked like night of the living dead part 2. All sorts of different guys coming out of the sand to hunt for food because I've been feeding the tank less.

Now if a guy is a cheap skate and doesn't use Gfo or another phosphate remover along with a nitrate remover, I do believe rock can get saturated. Btw your clam is my nitrate sponge.

 

[solitude127]

I'm with sanhcho on this one. I think the chemical and mechanical filtration just does part of the job, the live rock and DSB(if you have one) does the rest.

I've never seen Steve Tyree's tank but they say he doesn't run a skimmer and he has great results. So you'd assume that all the bad stuff is absorbed in the rocks

 

[wickedfish]

I think the angle I was going is, I have from the beginning used Gfo. I even used it inside the live rock bin before I added it to my display.

Because my rock came from another reefer (full Sps tank). I also skimmed the rock for 6 weeks and you wouldn't believe the amount of filth it had.

 

[Wetdreads]

I'm siding with wicked on that I don't really understand why were talking about the rocks being saturated and having sponge-like qualities. When a rock is really "live", isn't it because it has developed the different strains of bacteria that process ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, and finally nitrate to harmless nitrogen, if your rocks have truly been "cured". My thoughts is that the only thing the rock may become saturated with would be even larger colonies of that bacteria, essentially making them more efficient over time.

Also I believe the theory with a DSB is that it has to be 6"+ to have the denitrifying effects desired or else it is really just deposits calcium/ trace elements. Also having 3"-4" is considered in the danger zone being between the two and has the possibility of releasing all nasties you don't want in there.

 

[cymaster007]

Dan Rigles tank from Coral Magazine Oct 2012
The secret to a long-term tank-

Many visitors to Rigle’s home ask how he has avoided “old tank syndrome.” Rigle believes that this is most often caused by waning interest in older tanks, resulting in lax maintenance, especially in tanks with sand beds. About three years ago he decided to remove the sand bed and believes this, in combination with his vigilant, regular cleaning, has had a positive impact on the nutrient level in his aquarium.

Once a year, he removes his rock and corals to siphon debris and organic waste from underneath. The whole process takes three weeks. He removes a third of the rock each week, placing the rock and corals into a large Rubbermaid container while he cleans the bottom of the tank.

 

[lowbudget]

i thought so too. but with tanks with minimal rock work everyone is going with the less is more which is not enough, the rock is not enough and will be left over. what i was told to really get rid of the nasties from the rock is to dip it in acid burn off the first few layers of rock then hit it with baking soda to neutralize it. then dry out and then cycle it back to live rock. even with skimming and stuff only get part of the nasty out.

 

[wickedfish]

That's pretty gnarly that he (Dan Riggles sounds like a porn name btw) removes all his stuff to get under and really siphon the sand. See Mikey aren't you glad you did that?

Since I have had to remove serious pr!ick sucker fish I've had to take everything out of the tank 4 times. Each time I've siphoned everything until no more black water came out. I've added prime after as a precautionary measure to minimize potential ammonia spiked if any. Also skimmed super wet.

I believe that my old way of not siphoning was a disaster waiting to happen. Glad my Asian butt busy showed me the way of Filipino samurai.

 

[Imsosavvy]

Dan Rigles tank from Coral Magazine Oct 2012
The secret to a long-term tank-

Many visitors to Rigle’s home ask how he has avoided “old tank syndrome.” Rigle believes that this is most often caused by waning interest in older tanks, resulting in lax maintenance, especially in tanks with sand beds. About three years ago he decided to remove the sand bed and believes this, in combination with his vigilant, regular cleaning, has had a positive impact on the nutrient level in his aquarium.

Once a year, he removes his rock and corals to siphon debris and organic waste from underneath. The whole process takes three weeks. He removes a third of the rock each week, placing the rock and corals into a large Rubbermaid container while he cleans the bottom of the tank.

Thanks for this excerpt. My nano I have running now is not that old, only like 4 or 5 months. But I really think I might do this and slowly swap all the rocks and coral and do that underneath cleaning. Sounds pretty intelligent but tedious. Maybe I will re-even my sand bed too so I don't have those few 4 Inch spots my clown created that someone suggested is in the "danger" zone.