Is the hobby growing/shrinking?
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I was wondering how long before one of you guys posted something about the 4th Q growth stats. You really either have to learn how to read the whole article or take some econ classes. The correlation between taxation, economic growth is essentially non existent. Look at growth under Clinton or all the way back to the 50s with Eisenhower etc and you can have all the proof you need. This past Q had many variables including Super Storm Sandy, recession in Europe, lower growth in China (which impacts exports), fiscal cliff craziness but income was way up to avoid taxes so it was mixed bag.
BUT back to the thread a small LFS in Los Feliz dropped their salt/coral tanks due to slow sales. I would say overall the hobby is shrinking.
BUT back to the thread a small LFS in Los Feliz dropped their salt/coral tanks due to slow sales. I would say overall the hobby is shrinking.
I think the drop in the hobby is partially related to economy. A lot of local fish stores are closing because people dont have the cash to put into a saltwater tank. they also dont have the time because they have to work more so they can make more money. I also don't see any advertisements out in the streets for any LFS. i think LFS should get smarter into advertising and start giving free self sustainable reef tanks to local schools. that way when the kids go home all they want to do is talk their parents into buying a reef tank from their LFS. i would also totally rather buy local than buy online, who wants to pay $15-$30 in shipping? I go to CK fishworld in west covina to buy my stuff. That place has the right idea by having many nano to large display tanks set up everywhere. That place makes you want to buy with their awesome displays showing you you dont have to have a 200 gallon tank to have a beautiful tank. A lot of other stores i have been to are depressing, gloomy, dirty, dead fish in tanks, and every kind of algea growing everywhere. A lot of stores are just making themselves suffer by showing people crap and expecting them to buy it.
I think its shrinking. Kids do not find it exciting and do not value anything anymore. All they want to do is play video games and wear tight jeans lol
I honestly like shopping at LFStores and anyone who knows me knows that i dont mind a long drive to get to one. but Its hard to find the things you want and the online stores have everything and for so much cheaper. Right now i'm looking for the IC-gel glue for frags because i think its the best. no store I have been to has it. (haven't been to the OC yet) if i buy it online i might as well buy whatever else i need to get the free shipping.
also, years ago I was into freshwater and people i knew had freshwater tanks not SW. now saltwater is so popular but its also 10x more expensive. kids and people getting in dont want to spend that much. the people who do get in start small then have to upgrade or get out.
I honestly like shopping at LFStores and anyone who knows me knows that i dont mind a long drive to get to one. but Its hard to find the things you want and the online stores have everything and for so much cheaper. Right now i'm looking for the IC-gel glue for frags because i think its the best. no store I have been to has it. (haven't been to the OC yet) if i buy it online i might as well buy whatever else i need to get the free shipping.
also, years ago I was into freshwater and people i knew had freshwater tanks not SW. now saltwater is so popular but its also 10x more expensive. kids and people getting in dont want to spend that much. the people who do get in start small then have to upgrade or get out.
if you dont mind the digression: show me evidence that taxation is unrelated to growth because ive read many places that it is related in a complex way. Im just trying to learn, not put anyone down. & please dont present your opinion as fact, im capable of critically reviewing 1' & 2' evidence. Thanks.
http://taxfoundation.org/article/what-evidence-taxes-and-growth
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/PDF/0915taxesandeconomy.pdf
http://taxfoundation.org/article/what-evidence-taxes-and-growth
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/PDF/0915taxesandeconomy.pdf
It has to be factual that the hobby is shrinking in numbers. Los Angeles is a pretty big hub of sea life. Most everything out of the pacific seems to come here first then it goes everywhere else in the states.
I know for a fact almost all fish stores have had a bad year. I talked to over 100 in June-July and the ones that were good were the online vending ones.
I know for a fact almost all fish stores have had a bad year. I talked to over 100 in June-July and the ones that were good were the online vending ones.
I think you're a hobbiest or you're not. Doesn't seem to be too many hobbies anymore. Seems today they only hobby is texting and driving, texting and walking, texting and doing nothing. Everybody seems to have something to do while having nothing to do. Kids today have no hobbies. They have Ipads and fads. They think Facebutt is a hobby.
We also have a here and now generation. I want it here and I want it now. Our economy and country is paying a price for the entitlement mentality today. Wait for or earn something is foreign to them. Hobbies are long term, take patience and dedication.
Seems to be a lot of non-thinkers out there too. Buy something. Usually alive(dog, cat, rodent, fish)then months later have to give it up due to no time because of job, school, girlfriend, landlord says no, have to move. Just long enough to screw up whatever it is they now need to get rid of. Those are all things a thinker would be aware of. Six months is not all that far in the future. Unless you're a here and now type.
This hobby is as expensive as you want it to be. And almost as cheap as it could be. I watch people buy high dollar stuff and sell it a week later to try some other high end gadget. I personally have gotten great things for free and others for very reasonable prices. Just because its saltwater doesn't and shouldn't make it more expensive. The planet is covered by75% of the stuff. Should be cheap. Anyway. Fish aren't all that much more than fresh. Depending again on what you're after. Chromis are nice looking fish. Beautiful at $3 each when you buy a handful of them. Firefish for $7. Another awesome deal. But then some of you buy the Purple guy for 3x as much. Proving my first two sentences. I can't tell the difference between the $5 zoa and the $50 zoa. And neither can some of you by some of the posts you've posted lately.
Also. Equipment. Should be cheaper, especially if used. Last time I checked. Anytime anything is exoposed to saltwater it starts to deteriorate emmiediately.
This hobby rotates from interested to uninterested to the next interested hobbiest. Until they become uninterested, busy or whatever. I'm 49 years old and have had aquariums since second grade. If it wasn't glass it was a bucket of water with something swimming in it.
We also have a here and now generation. I want it here and I want it now. Our economy and country is paying a price for the entitlement mentality today. Wait for or earn something is foreign to them. Hobbies are long term, take patience and dedication.
Seems to be a lot of non-thinkers out there too. Buy something. Usually alive(dog, cat, rodent, fish)then months later have to give it up due to no time because of job, school, girlfriend, landlord says no, have to move. Just long enough to screw up whatever it is they now need to get rid of. Those are all things a thinker would be aware of. Six months is not all that far in the future. Unless you're a here and now type.
This hobby is as expensive as you want it to be. And almost as cheap as it could be. I watch people buy high dollar stuff and sell it a week later to try some other high end gadget. I personally have gotten great things for free and others for very reasonable prices. Just because its saltwater doesn't and shouldn't make it more expensive. The planet is covered by75% of the stuff. Should be cheap. Anyway. Fish aren't all that much more than fresh. Depending again on what you're after. Chromis are nice looking fish. Beautiful at $3 each when you buy a handful of them. Firefish for $7. Another awesome deal. But then some of you buy the Purple guy for 3x as much. Proving my first two sentences. I can't tell the difference between the $5 zoa and the $50 zoa. And neither can some of you by some of the posts you've posted lately.
Also. Equipment. Should be cheaper, especially if used. Last time I checked. Anytime anything is exoposed to saltwater it starts to deteriorate emmiediately.
This hobby rotates from interested to uninterested to the next interested hobbiest. Until they become uninterested, busy or whatever. I'm 49 years old and have had aquariums since second grade. If it wasn't glass it was a bucket of water with something swimming in it.
Lol I never said that. I wasn't referring to anybody in particular. It's funny to see your reactions to my thoughts even though they weren't directed to you. It's great that you have a successful business and can keep up with the hobby, Nick included.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42111.pdf
"To summarize, the evidence presented in this section suggests that past changes in tax
rates have had no large clear effect on economic growth and selected factors commonly
associated with economic growth. "
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42111.pdf
"To summarize, the evidence presented in this section suggests that past changes in tax
rates have had no large clear effect on economic growth and selected factors commonly
associated with economic growth. "
As far as what you said about younger kids...
I'm almost 19 years old and am just getting into the hobby. I've been trying to persuade a couple of my friends to join in because I've already found it to be extremely rewarding.
I think that younger kids either don't have the time or can't afford it (I'm dirt poor because of my tank) like me. Or both.
I'm almost 19 years old and am just getting into the hobby. I've been trying to persuade a couple of my friends to join in because I've already found it to be extremely rewarding.
I think that younger kids either don't have the time or can't afford it (I'm dirt poor because of my tank) like me. Or both.
Justin, thanks for this quote from the 2011congressional report. but my 2nd reference is the 2012 congressional report and the conclusion says the same thing:
"The results of the analysis sugest that changes over the past 65 years in the top marginal tax rate and the top capital gains tax rate do not appear correlated with economic growth."
I referenced that to show both sides of the arguement. I was hoping for a more more academic reference because it seems to me a report by the nations taxation body would look on taxation favorably.
"The results of the analysis sugest that changes over the past 65 years in the top marginal tax rate and the top capital gains tax rate do not appear correlated with economic growth."
I referenced that to show both sides of the arguement. I was hoping for a more more academic reference because it seems to me a report by the nations taxation body would look on taxation favorably.
It is absolutely shrinking, while working in a shop so many people came in to break up or sell their tanks, begging for advice because someone has thrust a tank on them or shied away when they realized the hard work involved. This completely overshadowed people wanting to get started. Many of those who came in wanting to begin a tank wanted: easy fresh water fish like a beta or they wanted "nemos" in a little fluval edge filled to the brim because its "cool" or to buy the corals/fish for profit not pleasure. I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but its a sad state.
