Thinking about getting an anemone, BUT...
- Thread starter Confuse
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Well, Joyce Wilkerson, for all her hobbyist experience, was neither a Marine Biologist, nor a statistician. I have seen that anemone "survey" misquoted and misused so much that I wish it had never happened. As far as the second "survey" you mention, it came around a year or two after the Wilkerson study and is even worse, if such a thing can be possible.
The only thing worse than NO data is BAD data. The Wilkerson survey was horrifically bad. There was no attempt to make sure the participants in the survey were a representative sample. No attempt to understand the environment in which the anemones were kept, or the causes of their demise. Quite frankly, there was no way to know if the anemones were even properly identified (note how BTA's are listed twice - sebae anemones are listed (even though no such species exists) - and the term "carpet" anemone is used when there are a least five different anemone species that are frequently referred to as "carpet" anemones in the trade). The information was not based on hard data, but on people's recollection of events. Therefore it was not a quantitative survey AT ALL - but a qualitative one; and not a single number from the study is worth the paper it is printed on. Worse than reporting bad data are the bad conclusions that were reached (and continue to be reached) from the bad data.
I could run the same "survey" tomorrow - but with freshwater aquarium owners - and reach the flawed conclusion that guppies should never be kept in aquariums because the average (remembered) life of a guppy in aquariums is two months (which is probably true
) Too bad if all the participants in the survey were 2nd graders...
What is with that second survey where all clown anemones are lumped into one pool as if they were the same species? I hope people realize they are different species, they all have slightly different care requirements, and they are found in different environments in the wild? H. crispa and E. quadricolor are even found in temperate waters as far as South Australia... water in which the tropical anemones would die - and yet one of the "conclusions" reached by this "study" deals with optimal temperature, etc. It is just bad.
There are plenty of REAL scientific papers available for people to read if they want to learn more about anemones, their functional biology, and their behavior in the wild. Better yet, many of these papers are available FOR FREE online. People should give them a spin...
The only thing worse than NO data is BAD data. The Wilkerson survey was horrifically bad. There was no attempt to make sure the participants in the survey were a representative sample. No attempt to understand the environment in which the anemones were kept, or the causes of their demise. Quite frankly, there was no way to know if the anemones were even properly identified (note how BTA's are listed twice - sebae anemones are listed (even though no such species exists) - and the term "carpet" anemone is used when there are a least five different anemone species that are frequently referred to as "carpet" anemones in the trade). The information was not based on hard data, but on people's recollection of events. Therefore it was not a quantitative survey AT ALL - but a qualitative one; and not a single number from the study is worth the paper it is printed on. Worse than reporting bad data are the bad conclusions that were reached (and continue to be reached) from the bad data.
I could run the same "survey" tomorrow - but with freshwater aquarium owners - and reach the flawed conclusion that guppies should never be kept in aquariums because the average (remembered) life of a guppy in aquariums is two months (which is probably true
) Too bad if all the participants in the survey were 2nd graders...What is with that second survey where all clown anemones are lumped into one pool as if they were the same species? I hope people realize they are different species, they all have slightly different care requirements, and they are found in different environments in the wild? H. crispa and E. quadricolor are even found in temperate waters as far as South Australia... water in which the tropical anemones would die - and yet one of the "conclusions" reached by this "study" deals with optimal temperature, etc. It is just bad.
There are plenty of REAL scientific papers available for people to read if they want to learn more about anemones, their functional biology, and their behavior in the wild. Better yet, many of these papers are available FOR FREE online. People should give them a spin...
Im happy to be on the same board with someone like you, who has more than token knowledge of reef animals.
I remind you this is a reef hobbiest forum, not a reef biology scientific forum. The difference is people want to learn how to keep reef pets, not get an honorary PhD in reef marine biology. Im not a marine biology PhD, but if you are then reveal yourself as such.
Of course the survey that I reposted was not scientific by any stretch. How can anything posted on "about.com", a non-scientific, non-peer reviewed website be as scientific as any biology journal?
But I dont know of another that is as practically useful to a reef hobbiest/enthusiast that wants to base his action on data, however bad. If you know of one then post a link.
Stop snickering and let others learn what you know.
I remind you this is a reef hobbiest forum, not a reef biology scientific forum. The difference is people want to learn how to keep reef pets, not get an honorary PhD in reef marine biology. Im not a marine biology PhD, but if you are then reveal yourself as such.
Of course the survey that I reposted was not scientific by any stretch. How can anything posted on "about.com", a non-scientific, non-peer reviewed website be as scientific as any biology journal?
But I dont know of another that is as practically useful to a reef hobbiest/enthusiast that wants to base his action on data, however bad. If you know of one then post a link.
Stop snickering and let others learn what you know.
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm snickering because I'm really not. I love reef animals and love reefing. I'm not trying to inflate my ego and if someone points out that I am an idiot (as I frequently am) I take it in stride (just ask my wife who points out my numerous flaws daily).
I was responding to your comment about how BTA's were the only species that can be kept long term in aquaria, that is all. I think ALL anemone species can be kept long term in aquaria (and all HAVE) you just need to provide the proper care. I would rather focus on people sharing success stories than people sharing failure stories - and that is the single thing that I hated most about the Wilkerson survey. It was a failure survey.
I don't doubt that when people were first keeping clownfish, a lot of clownfish died. When people first started breeding them in the 1980's it was like a new horizon opened up. Now with the free exchange of ideas and information, it's no big deal to keep clownfish for years, have them reproduce, and raise the fry to adulthood.
I think we could do the same with ALL clown anemones species. Two species reproduce asexually in reef tanks all the time - E. quadricolor and H. magnifica. Two species have been sexually reproduced in labs - E. quadricolor and H. crispa. I certainly HOPE to see the day when captive-raised anemones are as broadly available as SPS frags (and hopefully for much lower cost).
I didn't want to make it sound like I was writing a white paper on scientific methods - just pointing out that the Wilkerson study is crap. And I don't use that term often. Don't base your understanding of anemones, their survivability, their care, or ANYTHING on that survey. It was a bunch of gossip parading as science.
And though I enjoy talking anemone research it is pretty dry stuff most of the time and I would get kicked off the site for boring people to death I know I bore my wife LOL!
I was responding to your comment about how BTA's were the only species that can be kept long term in aquaria, that is all. I think ALL anemone species can be kept long term in aquaria (and all HAVE) you just need to provide the proper care. I would rather focus on people sharing success stories than people sharing failure stories - and that is the single thing that I hated most about the Wilkerson survey. It was a failure survey.
I don't doubt that when people were first keeping clownfish, a lot of clownfish died. When people first started breeding them in the 1980's it was like a new horizon opened up. Now with the free exchange of ideas and information, it's no big deal to keep clownfish for years, have them reproduce, and raise the fry to adulthood.
I think we could do the same with ALL clown anemones species. Two species reproduce asexually in reef tanks all the time - E. quadricolor and H. magnifica. Two species have been sexually reproduced in labs - E. quadricolor and H. crispa. I certainly HOPE to see the day when captive-raised anemones are as broadly available as SPS frags (and hopefully for much lower cost).
I didn't want to make it sound like I was writing a white paper on scientific methods - just pointing out that the Wilkerson study is crap. And I don't use that term often. Don't base your understanding of anemones, their survivability, their care, or ANYTHING on that survey. It was a bunch of gossip parading as science.
And though I enjoy talking anemone research it is pretty dry stuff most of the time and I would get kicked off the site for boring people to death
I know I bore my wife LOL!No offense was taken.
But you still havent provided another source of evidence that a novice-intermediate reefer can use when coming up on a colorful anemone in the LFS and deciding whether to take it home or not.
Again, people want to take home and sustain an anemone as a pet, not write a thesis on it. So why wouldnt % survivability, difficulty of care, etc be or paramount importance? It translates into time and money- real world concerns.
Also, keep in mind the studies were retrospective cohort studies, subject to all the flaws, limitations and biases of this type of clinical study. It is a study of "what apparently works better", not a wet lab benchtop study of "how" or "why."
But you still havent provided another source of evidence that a novice-intermediate reefer can use when coming up on a colorful anemone in the LFS and deciding whether to take it home or not.
Again, people want to take home and sustain an anemone as a pet, not write a thesis on it. So why wouldnt % survivability, difficulty of care, etc be or paramount importance? It translates into time and money- real world concerns.
Also, keep in mind the studies were retrospective cohort studies, subject to all the flaws, limitations and biases of this type of clinical study. It is a study of "what apparently works better", not a wet lab benchtop study of "how" or "why."
I don't really know a good all-around anemone info source. The Anemone FAQ on Reef Central was an attempt to pull some stuff together and put it in an easy-to-understand format, but it is 8 years old now and needs to be updated. Nothing WRONG with the info, just there is more stuff that should probably be added. Here's a link to it.
There has been a lot of research lately on anemones, but most of it is really dry, dealing with toxins for medical research, or with zooxanthellae and the impact of climate change on coral bleaching. Dr. Anna Scott in Australia is probably doing the coolest, most relevant work - she is the one who has been working on sexually reproducing clown anemones in a lab. Here are links to some of her papers. The reading can be a little dry but there are cool color photos of baby 'nems And if you were ever wondering about anemone aquaculture, they would be invaluable (the first one is the driest - they get better as you move along but I listed them in chronological order based on the reproductive cycle)
Scott1
Scott2
Scott3
Scott4
There has been a lot of research lately on anemones, but most of it is really dry, dealing with toxins for medical research, or with zooxanthellae and the impact of climate change on coral bleaching. Dr. Anna Scott in Australia is probably doing the coolest, most relevant work - she is the one who has been working on sexually reproducing clown anemones in a lab. Here are links to some of her papers. The reading can be a little dry but there are cool color photos of baby 'nems
And if you were ever wondering about anemone aquaculture, they would be invaluable (the first one is the driest - they get better as you move along but I listed them in chronological order based on the reproductive cycle)Scott1
Scott2
Scott3
Scott4
