Phosphate flow out of rocks

SantaMonica

Premium Member
Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
563
Likes
47
Points
18
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
#1
Many people, when they get their scrubber running for the first time, get worried when more (not less) algae starts to grow on their rocks. It seems really strange, especially when nitrate and phosphate have gone lower than before. What is happening is that phosphate is coming out of the rocks. Remember, phosphate is invisible, so you can only see the effects of it, and it always "flows" from higher concentrations to lower concentrations (just like heat does).

Example: If your room is warm, and you put a cold object on the floor, heat from the air in the room will "flow" into the object until the object and the air are the same temperature. Example 2: If you put a hot object on the floor, heat will "flow" out of the object and go into the air in the room, again, until the air and the object are the same temperature. Now suppose you open your windows (in the winter). The warm air in your room will go out the windows, and it will get colder in the room. The object on the floor is now warmer than the air, so heat will flow out of the object and into the air, and then out the window.

Think of phosphate as the heat, and your rocks as the object, and your windows as the scrubber. As the scrubber pulls phosphate out of the water, the phosphate level in the water drops. Now, since the phosphate level in the water is lower than the phosphate level in the rocks, phosphate flows from the rocks into the water, and then from the water into the scrubber. This continues until the phosphate levels in the rocks and water are level again. And remember, you can't see this invisible flow.

This flow causes an interesting thing happens. As the phosphate comes out of the rocks, it then becomes available to feed algae as soon as the phosphate reaches the surface of the rocks where there is light. So, since the surface of the rocks is rough and has light, it starts growing MORE algae there (not less) as the phosphate comes out of the rocks. This is a pretty amazing thing to see for the first time, because if you did not know what was happening you would probably think that the algae in the scrubber was leaking out and attaching to your rocks. Here are the signs of phosphate coming out of the rocks:

1. The rocks are older, and have slowly developed algae problems in the past year.

2. The scrubber is new, maybe only a few months old, and has recently started to grow well.

3. Nitrate and phosphate measurements in the water are low, usually the lowest they have been in a long time.

4. Green hair algae (not brown) on the rocks has increased in certain spots, usually on corners and protrusions at the top.

5. The glass has not needed cleaning as much.


Since skimmers, filter socks, etc don't remove any nitrate and phosphate, and waterchanges and macro's in a fuge don't remove much, most people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough, it does. How long does it continue? For 2 months to a year, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how strong your scrubber is, and how many other phosphate-removing filters you have (GFO, carbon dosing, etc). But one day you will see patches of white rock that were covered in green hair the day before; this is a sure sign that the algae are losing their phosphate supply from the rocks and can no longer hold on. Now it's just a matter of days before the rocks are clear.
 
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
1,826
Likes
2
Points
0
Location
Lakewood
#3
I dont buy this for mutiple reasons or at least the example your giving.

If I were to add an ats... I would get algae growing on rocks that hsd no growth before...? Perhaps taking the skimmer offline caused a nutrient spike causing the growth.... it dieing off would tske time but everything stated has so many other varibles... =T
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,308
Likes
43
Points
38
Location
Moreno Valley
#10
Yeah on his build post he said something about a silica build up from his rodi that a ats doesn't get rid of but his phos were always at 0. He only stopped using it because of silica
 

Six2seven

Premium Member
Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
8,473
Likes
24
Points
38
Location
San Pedro, CA
#13
Is there any scientific proof to this??

I tried one of ur UTS and it seemed like it didn't do anything. Saw no difference, positive or negative.


Hot Dogs are GOOD!
I still have not seen one positive result from people who have tried it for an extended period of time.
 
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
1,826
Likes
2
Points
0
Location
Lakewood
#14
But he said its true!....so it has to be true!... he's physicslly seen phosphate being used by algae... he can see molecules being used....

-sarcasm. ...

But in all honesty.... sigh....

That is all
 
Joined
May 19, 2013
Messages
433
Likes
1
Points
18
Location
La habra
#15
For 299 plus 35 for the air pump you can get the new scrubber but for 3 red leds a small heat sink a power source and some foam it seems pretty pricey. I'd rather spend that on a good skimmer.
 

watchguy123

Member
Featured Reef
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
2,017
Likes
42
Points
38
Location
West San Fernando Valley
#18
This is a very tough crowd, the poor guy is just sharing some of his insight. Would not be the first guy to spout something wrong. However, on either r2r or rc, the algae scrubber threads seem to agree by more than one person ( turbo Floyd or whatever his name is, the resident expert on ATS) that algae does sprout on initial use of Algae turf Scrubbers irregardless of design many, many times. Although Santa Monica sells his UAS, this thread was really informational (if not scientifically accurate-there are a host of things going on with initial changes by ATS use) and really just disseminating information and opinion. Gotta give the guy a break

Yes, I bought an UAS and yes it is pricey. I have had it in a frag tank for months and still undecided about it but again this thread was started as informational and not fair to hijack it about price or success of his product. Sometimes one idea leads to another and I think innovators and entrepreneurs should be lauded for creative thinking. I think ultimately algae scrubbing may have a significant place, although I am pretty sure we have not found the ideal scrubber yet by anyone. But c'mon, whether scientifically correct or not, lots of reefers think rocks are phosphate sinks. I have no real idea but I have not spent much time reading about this either
 
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
13,586
Likes
104
Points
48
Location
Eastvale, Ca (Corona)
#19
This is a very tough crowd, the poor guy is just sharing some of his insight. Would not be the first guy to spout something wrong. However, on either r2r or rc, the algae scrubber threads seem to agree by more than one person ( turbo Floyd or whatever his name is, the resident expert on ATS) that algae does sprout on initial use of Algae turf Scrubbers irregardless of design many, many times. Although Santa Monica sells his UAS, this thread was really informational (if not scientifically accurate-there are a host of things going on with initial changes by ATS use) and really just disseminating information and opinion. Gotta give the guy a break

Yes, I bought an UAS and yes it is pricey. I have had it in a frag tank for months and still undecided about it but again this thread was started as informational and not fair to hijack it about price or success of his product. Sometimes one idea leads to another and I think innovators and entrepreneurs should be lauded for creative thinking. I think ultimately algae scrubbing may have a significant place, although I am pretty sure we have not found the ideal scrubber yet by anyone. But c'mon, whether scientifically correct or not, lots of reefers think rocks are phosphate sinks. I have no real idea but I have not spent much time reading about this either
Only reason I'm asking questions is because I bought one of his scrubbers and after 3-4 months, I saw no change in nitrates or phosphates. Kinda bummed me out.

His huge custom acrylic scrubbers seem pretty legit, and I'm sure provide better results.... but who has room for one of those. ???


Hot Dogs are GOOD!
 

pgr11

Member
Supporter
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
11,011
Likes
92
Points
48
Location
Hesperia
#20
This is a very tough crowd, the poor guy is just sharing some of his insight. Would not be the first guy to spout something wrong. However, on either r2r or rc, the algae scrubber threads seem to agree by more than one person ( turbo Floyd or whatever his name is, the resident expert on ATS) that algae does sprout on initial use of Algae turf Scrubbers irregardless of design many, many times. Although Santa Monica sells his UAS, this thread was really informational (if not scientifically accurate-there are a host of things going on with initial changes by ATS use) and really just disseminating information and opinion. Gotta give the guy a break

Yes, I bought an UAS and yes it is pricey. I have had it in a frag tank for months and still undecided about it but again this thread was started as informational and not fair to hijack it about price or success of his product. Sometimes one idea leads to another and I think innovators and entrepreneurs should be lauded for creative thinking. I think ultimately algae scrubbing may have a significant place, although I am pretty sure we have not found the ideal scrubber yet by anyone. But c'mon, whether scientifically correct or not, lots of reefers think rocks are phosphate sinks. I have no real idea but I have not spent much time reading about this either
Agree 100%. I have no experience running one myself but have seen a few tank that do and I can't deny the results. The tanks were amazing. One tank only used an ATS with no skimmer. Like many things in this hobby what works for some doesn't work for others. Some hate bio pellets some love them. Some lime led some hate them. If anything an ATS is another weapon in a reefers arsenal to help us keep the creatures we love
 

Latest posts

Top