Help! Is this ok?
- Thread starter kearstin.nelson
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I think the probability of the Phosphate coming in your source water is high. Knowing where you truly stand is key. Good test kits are essential. I personally use the Hanna Checker for low range phosphate. Very easy to use and very accurate for it's price point. Running a good quality GFO like Rowaphos will definitely help.
I think you have just reached that point in your tank where nuisance things like Cyano are starting to show up. I agree with several posters that unfortunately the canister filter may not be the best choice for your tank and may be contributing to some of your high nutrient problems. Given a bit if time, GFO, maybe another round of Chemi Clean (make sure the skimmer is running, but no collection cup), and getting your RODI up and running so you are starting with great water for water changes you'll get your issues licked.
You have definitely come a long way from where you were when this thread first started.. Keep the questions and pictures coming..
I think you have just reached that point in your tank where nuisance things like Cyano are starting to show up. I agree with several posters that unfortunately the canister filter may not be the best choice for your tank and may be contributing to some of your high nutrient problems. Given a bit if time, GFO, maybe another round of Chemi Clean (make sure the skimmer is running, but no collection cup), and getting your RODI up and running so you are starting with great water for water changes you'll get your issues licked.
You have definitely come a long way from where you were when this thread first started.. Keep the questions and pictures coming..
Sorry if I'm going to repeat something someone else has said...
Anyway to ditch the canister filter? Its probably doing more harm than good. When was the last time you cleaned it out?
Instead of the canister filter, I would get a properly sized hang on the back protein skimmer. I probably missed it but how often do you do water changes? And how much water do you change?
Also, cyanobacteria is extremely efficient and doesn't need very much nitrates and phosphates to reproduce and grow. It can grow in low nutrient systems (low nitrates / low phosphates). Order yourself some bacteria in a bottle, like Dr. Tims. You have a bacterial imbalance and by adding a different bacteria, it will effectively outcompete the cyano for available nutrients.
I would also ditch that coral skeleton, and order yourself some better and more porous dry rock like Marco Rock or BRS Pukani (or live if you have access to it). Not too much (it doesn't have to be a rock wall), but enough to add a bit more surface area for the other bacteria to colonize. If you purchase dry rock, cycle it in a bin of saltwater with a heater and powerhead for a month or so.
Anyway to ditch the canister filter? Its probably doing more harm than good. When was the last time you cleaned it out?
Instead of the canister filter, I would get a properly sized hang on the back protein skimmer. I probably missed it but how often do you do water changes? And how much water do you change?
Also, cyanobacteria is extremely efficient and doesn't need very much nitrates and phosphates to reproduce and grow. It can grow in low nutrient systems (low nitrates / low phosphates). Order yourself some bacteria in a bottle, like Dr. Tims. You have a bacterial imbalance and by adding a different bacteria, it will effectively outcompete the cyano for available nutrients.
I would also ditch that coral skeleton, and order yourself some better and more porous dry rock like Marco Rock or BRS Pukani (or live if you have access to it). Not too much (it doesn't have to be a rock wall), but enough to add a bit more surface area for the other bacteria to colonize. If you purchase dry rock, cycle it in a bin of saltwater with a heater and powerhead for a month or so.
I think BeanMachine nailed it.
If you have your phosphates and nitrates down the bacteria is probably the way to go. If you still have enough chemi-clean left over I do a treatment to kill off most of the cyano. Then add the dr.tims to help out compete what's left.
If your nutrients aren't down yet from the 25g water changes a week then you have an issue most likely the canister like BeanMachine stated. You gotta clean those out once a week if you have any sponge/filter material in there. Stuff gets stuck and rots, not allowing your skimmer to pull it from the water column.
If you really love your rocks order some of that matrix I told you about before and fill your canister with it. Then once a month or so take a 5g bucket of clean saltwater and dump the rocks in. Swish them around to get the detritus out and place them back in the canister.
It sounds like your lfs is priced way high on the matrix. I fill one and a half tlf150 reactors for 10 bucks of the stuff. Works great for pod breeding grounds. It never goes bad or needs replacing. It's just super porous rock broken into small pieces for more surface area for bacterial growth. With water being forced through, like in a canister filter or reactor, you get a decent amount of increased filtration without having a bunch of rock in you DT
Hope that's helps some.
[MENTION=3628]BeanMachine[/MENTION] - you think she'd need to cycle new Marco rock? I thought that stuff was pre washed and n phosphate free?
If you have your phosphates and nitrates down the bacteria is probably the way to go. If you still have enough chemi-clean left over I do a treatment to kill off most of the cyano. Then add the dr.tims to help out compete what's left.
If your nutrients aren't down yet from the 25g water changes a week then you have an issue most likely the canister like BeanMachine stated. You gotta clean those out once a week if you have any sponge/filter material in there. Stuff gets stuck and rots, not allowing your skimmer to pull it from the water column.
If you really love your rocks order some of that matrix I told you about before and fill your canister with it. Then once a month or so take a 5g bucket of clean saltwater and dump the rocks in. Swish them around to get the detritus out and place them back in the canister.
It sounds like your lfs is priced way high on the matrix. I fill one and a half tlf150 reactors for 10 bucks of the stuff. Works great for pod breeding grounds. It never goes bad or needs replacing. It's just super porous rock broken into small pieces for more surface area for bacterial growth. With water being forced through, like in a canister filter or reactor, you get a decent amount of increased filtration without having a bunch of rock in you DT
Hope that's helps some.
[MENTION=3628]BeanMachine[/MENTION] - you think she'd need to cycle new Marco rock? I thought that stuff was pre washed and n phosphate free?
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Stay with me, I'm trying to replay to all ya'll 
Smite,
what u said before about my cannister filter holding onto unwanted bact with sponges made so much sense! therefore I immediately removed 50% of what I had in there. It also made me pay more attention to cleaning it however, I haven't been cleaning it 1 per wk. Probably twice a month. Should i be placing what little foam i have in any particular way? I assume intake so i did, i wasnt sure if i was supposed to surround biomax so I did. No other foam. I am going to buy some matrix. Obviously lfs is charging lots so I won't wait for them to have bigger pack. Should I place foam in between matrix and carbon bag?
Wc- started with 25 gal like you said For about a month. I've been doing avg 17 gal wc lately once a week. No4 at 7ppm now. I assumed since my no4 was down I didn't need to do 25 *looking back at it all now, the sugar is what dropped my no4. Not wc particularly. And with that I shouldn't have went against your word just cuz no4 was lower. Now I'm getting back to that point. I'm seeing the 25 is necessary for my tank, naturally with what I have (at least without matrix now), cuz of those nutrients, or what not, causing more cyano. And naturally without sugar no4 is probably climbing very slightly again... Got it.
What if I took half my rubble rocks from the tank and just put them in the filter? Would that do anything? I'm thinking not because some bact don't like high flow areas. Correct? That's how I thought the nitrifing bacteria was, so I've been puzzled by that matrix in the cannister...but I will trust that works...
Thank you. Your awesome.
Beanmachine,
From what u just read, I have been playing around with the cannister. It is good for 100 gal. And I do have a hob protien skimmer. It's the tropic marine v2 skim 800 good for 180 gal I believe. I've been trying to pencil it in. after my first chemiclean dose, I was forced to turn pump down. I haven't messed with pump before. I am now getting better more fluffy bubbles. However this morning I noticed it's spitting lots of micro bubbles. I moved my power heads around yesterday and though that look was flying sand. This morning I realized it was micro bubbles from skimmer. So Idk the probs I'll have from that happening. It's still full of micro bubbles. I did use more chemi clean yesterday... other than the changes I made yesterday, if it affected it somehow, is there a particular reason for my micro bubbles today?
Thank you for the explanation of cyano! You should come work at the lfs hahaha I will be purchasing dr tims. I have been referred to it before (cough cough, Jose casa). In terms of needing bacteria when talking about the cyano and watching the bad effects happen in front of my eyes, something you said clicked and now everything everyone has said about "dosing" makes more sense and I thank you.
As much as I love my coral skeleton, I will take it out for now (it's really the bf who wants it there so this will be a rough one) it's not gunna hurt but hopefully do good for now at least. It may be back in there later hehe
Rock- I agree I need some more! Yet again lfs doesn't have any live (lost supplier) and hasn't for the last 3 mths. I managed to get 3 rocks from them. Got an astrina! (Removed) And a brittle star (researched and appears I got an ok one) so that's a step in the right direction I think. I saw questioning of cycling rock, as of now I feel it's a "better be safe than sorry" issue at this point so I'd feel safer to cycle it a bit regardless. As long as I'm not killing goods. I'll use heater and power head. And Tank water?
Thanks
Ndrwater,
I'm just venturing into phosphates. I tested monday at lfs with api so I don't know exact. It was definitely lower than .5 I'd say in between the 0.0ppm and .25 ppm mark. I'm gathering it's supposed to be at 0 or 0.015... so it is high? I looked into rowaphos and I feel that will be on my shopping list as well. That can work in cannister with matrix as well? Or should I do 1 or the other?...
You said "use skimmer but no collection cup" uhhh I'm not looking to swim in my living room, so I'm assuming I'm not sure what you mean haha...
R/O set up and working!! So far I pulled 10 gal yesterday removing cyano. filled with ro and I have about 30 gal now to use for a wc!! Yaaa.
If ya'll come to ohio I want to meet you! Shake your hands
Smite,
what u said before about my cannister filter holding onto unwanted bact with sponges made so much sense! therefore I immediately removed 50% of what I had in there. It also made me pay more attention to cleaning it however, I haven't been cleaning it 1 per wk. Probably twice a month. Should i be placing what little foam i have in any particular way? I assume intake so i did, i wasnt sure if i was supposed to surround biomax so I did. No other foam. I am going to buy some matrix. Obviously lfs is charging lots so I won't wait for them to have bigger pack. Should I place foam in between matrix and carbon bag?
Wc- started with 25 gal like you said For about a month. I've been doing avg 17 gal wc lately once a week. No4 at 7ppm now. I assumed since my no4 was down I didn't need to do 25 *looking back at it all now, the sugar is what dropped my no4. Not wc particularly. And with that I shouldn't have went against your word just cuz no4 was lower. Now I'm getting back to that point. I'm seeing the 25 is necessary for my tank, naturally with what I have (at least without matrix now), cuz of those nutrients, or what not, causing more cyano. And naturally without sugar no4 is probably climbing very slightly again... Got it.
What if I took half my rubble rocks from the tank and just put them in the filter? Would that do anything? I'm thinking not because some bact don't like high flow areas. Correct? That's how I thought the nitrifing bacteria was, so I've been puzzled by that matrix in the cannister...but I will trust that works...
Thank you. Your awesome.
Beanmachine,
From what u just read, I have been playing around with the cannister. It is good for 100 gal. And I do have a hob protien skimmer. It's the tropic marine v2 skim 800 good for 180 gal I believe. I've been trying to pencil it in. after my first chemiclean dose, I was forced to turn pump down. I haven't messed with pump before. I am now getting better more fluffy bubbles. However this morning I noticed it's spitting lots of micro bubbles. I moved my power heads around yesterday and though that look was flying sand. This morning I realized it was micro bubbles from skimmer. So Idk the probs I'll have from that happening. It's still full of micro bubbles. I did use more chemi clean yesterday... other than the changes I made yesterday, if it affected it somehow, is there a particular reason for my micro bubbles today?
Thank you for the explanation of cyano! You should come work at the lfs hahaha I will be purchasing dr tims. I have been referred to it before (cough cough, Jose casa). In terms of needing bacteria when talking about the cyano and watching the bad effects happen in front of my eyes, something you said clicked and now everything everyone has said about "dosing" makes more sense and I thank you.
As much as I love my coral skeleton, I will take it out for now (it's really the bf who wants it there so this will be a rough one) it's not gunna hurt but hopefully do good for now at least. It may be back in there later hehe
Rock- I agree I need some more! Yet again lfs doesn't have any live (lost supplier) and hasn't for the last 3 mths. I managed to get 3 rocks from them. Got an astrina! (Removed) And a brittle star (researched and appears I got an ok one) so that's a step in the right direction I think. I saw questioning of cycling rock, as of now I feel it's a "better be safe than sorry" issue at this point so I'd feel safer to cycle it a bit regardless. As long as I'm not killing goods. I'll use heater and power head. And Tank water?
Thanks
Ndrwater,
I'm just venturing into phosphates. I tested monday at lfs with api so I don't know exact. It was definitely lower than .5 I'd say in between the 0.0ppm and .25 ppm mark. I'm gathering it's supposed to be at 0 or 0.015... so it is high? I looked into rowaphos and I feel that will be on my shopping list as well. That can work in cannister with matrix as well? Or should I do 1 or the other?...
You said "use skimmer but no collection cup" uhhh I'm not looking to swim in my living room, so I'm assuming I'm not sure what you mean haha...
R/O set up and working!! So far I pulled 10 gal yesterday removing cyano. filled with ro and I have about 30 gal now to use for a wc!! Yaaa.
If ya'll come to ohio I want to meet you! Shake your hands
Order BRS Pukani or Marco rock, 3/4 of the rock and dead coral in your tank now aren't doing you any good. Are those river rocks on the left? You need rock that has cracks ,crevices... something that's porous. More surface area for good bacteria to out compete the bad. I wouldn't bother with anything else until you get that rock replaced.
Ndrwater,
I'm just venturing into phosphates. I tested monday at lfs with api so I don't know exact. It was definitely lower than .5 I'd say in between the 0.0ppm and .25 ppm mark. I'm gathering it's supposed to be at 0 or 0.015... so it is high? I looked into rowaphos and I feel that will be on my shopping list as well. That can work in cannister with matrix as well? Or should I do 1 or the other?...
You said "use skimmer but no collection cup" uhhh I'm not looking to swim in my living room, so I'm assuming I'm not sure what you mean haha.
So... 1st things 1st...the reason I suggested a Hanna Checker for Phosphate is because the difference between 0.0 and 0.25 is HUUUGE. Think of it this way, driving to the local LFS or driving to the Moon... Lame analogy, but hopefully you get the idea. Ideally, (or at least where I try to keep my Phosphates is around 0.03. Just to give another point of reference, .25 is 800 times greater than 0.03. Kind of a wide margin... By controlling Phosphate, you are helping to control not only Cyano, but many other types of nuisance algae. Rowaphos definitely helps. It binds Phosphate, and unlike other phosphate removing media, it won't rerelease any back into the water when depleted. Now for how to utilize Rowaphos, I suppose you could use it in a canister filter, but definitely not my 1st choice. GFO (Rowaphos) is most effective when the media has a chance to tumble in a slow column of water. I.E. in a Media Reactor. The 2 biggest benefits of using GFO in this way are, being able to remove the "fines" from the media so you don't blow it all over the tank, and being able to control the flow so you get a nice slow tumble. Check Bulkreefsupply.com for a great how to/why to video.
Now for the skimmer w/ no collection cup, depending on your skimmer, this may not be possible. The reasoning behind leaving the skimmer running is that ChemiClean can drastically reduce the dissolved oxygen in the tank, potentially causing problems. The skimmer by it's very nature, lots of air bubbles in the skimmer and subsequently in the tank will keep O2 levels at an acceptable ratio. If you have a skimmer that doesn't allow you to do this and cause you to "Swim in your living room" then just make sure you have very good surface agitation and therefore good gas exchange and good O2 levels.
Which leads me to point #3. You are seriously limiting yourself by using a canister filter. I get that it is probably an expense that none of want to endure by changing out an expensive piece of equipment, but, utilizing a sump will allow the flexibility to do many of the things that have been mentioned not only by me, but others above. A sump can be as simple as a small bare tank and a return pump. There are many great manufacturers out there that make specialty sumps, but a simple glass tank will be just as effective and allow you to correctly and effectively utilize much of the other equipment out there to allow you to be as successfull as we all want you to be.
Keep the updates coming... As you can probably tell, we are all here to help.
I'm just venturing into phosphates. I tested monday at lfs with api so I don't know exact. It was definitely lower than .5 I'd say in between the 0.0ppm and .25 ppm mark. I'm gathering it's supposed to be at 0 or 0.015... so it is high? I looked into rowaphos and I feel that will be on my shopping list as well. That can work in cannister with matrix as well? Or should I do 1 or the other?...
You said "use skimmer but no collection cup" uhhh I'm not looking to swim in my living room, so I'm assuming I'm not sure what you mean haha.
So... 1st things 1st...the reason I suggested a Hanna Checker for Phosphate is because the difference between 0.0 and 0.25 is HUUUGE. Think of it this way, driving to the local LFS or driving to the Moon... Lame analogy, but hopefully you get the idea. Ideally, (or at least where I try to keep my Phosphates is around 0.03. Just to give another point of reference, .25 is 800 times greater than 0.03. Kind of a wide margin... By controlling Phosphate, you are helping to control not only Cyano, but many other types of nuisance algae. Rowaphos definitely helps. It binds Phosphate, and unlike other phosphate removing media, it won't rerelease any back into the water when depleted. Now for how to utilize Rowaphos, I suppose you could use it in a canister filter, but definitely not my 1st choice. GFO (Rowaphos) is most effective when the media has a chance to tumble in a slow column of water. I.E. in a Media Reactor. The 2 biggest benefits of using GFO in this way are, being able to remove the "fines" from the media so you don't blow it all over the tank, and being able to control the flow so you get a nice slow tumble. Check Bulkreefsupply.com for a great how to/why to video.
Now for the skimmer w/ no collection cup, depending on your skimmer, this may not be possible. The reasoning behind leaving the skimmer running is that ChemiClean can drastically reduce the dissolved oxygen in the tank, potentially causing problems. The skimmer by it's very nature, lots of air bubbles in the skimmer and subsequently in the tank will keep O2 levels at an acceptable ratio. If you have a skimmer that doesn't allow you to do this and cause you to "Swim in your living room" then just make sure you have very good surface agitation and therefore good gas exchange and good O2 levels.
Which leads me to point #3. You are seriously limiting yourself by using a canister filter. I get that it is probably an expense that none of want to endure by changing out an expensive piece of equipment, but, utilizing a sump will allow the flexibility to do many of the things that have been mentioned not only by me, but others above. A sump can be as simple as a small bare tank and a return pump. There are many great manufacturers out there that make specialty sumps, but a simple glass tank will be just as effective and allow you to correctly and effectively utilize much of the other equipment out there to allow you to be as successfull as we all want you to be.
Keep the updates coming... As you can probably tell, we are all here to help.
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Gotcha. Had I known about sumps, believe me I'd go with that option. I currently have 2 empty 55gal I'll be playing with in the future. The problem with the 125 is its in the living room on the old entertainment center. There's no room under there for a sump bigger than like 10 or 15 gal. I figure it'd be better than nothing but, as of now I'm gunna try to make the cannister work. Sump is definitely a future plan. And I will be keeping the 125 fowlr for now. Bf doesn't share my coral enthusiasm. At least 1 of my 55gal with 55 sump will be corals. I'm still in need of some knowledge before I dive in there. I'm making progress with you guys. I really appreciate it.
Anyway, I've been playing with the tank all morn. Took out coral and misc crap. Changed 25 gal of ro h20. It's looking good. Good substrate flow. Moved power heads to different locations. Re-placed carbon. Skimmer has been running non stop for the last week. I've also done some research on products ya'll suggested. I can't seem to find pukani rock in stock but, found a good deal on reef saver dry reef rock. Looking into others. I'll get it and I'm waiting to bact dose until then.
Anyway, I've been playing with the tank all morn. Took out coral and misc crap. Changed 25 gal of ro h20. It's looking good. Good substrate flow. Moved power heads to different locations. Re-placed carbon. Skimmer has been running non stop for the last week. I've also done some research on products ya'll suggested. I can't seem to find pukani rock in stock but, found a good deal on reef saver dry reef rock. Looking into others. I'll get it and I'm waiting to bact dose until then.
I finally lucked out and got this live rock for a great deal! However, there are lots of critters. Bristle worms, astrina, bristle stars and lots more I'm sure. I no astrina is bad and red bristle worms (i put those rocks back but i probably have some) are bad.
I didn't want to put rock in the tank last night because of this. I have rock in a bin with 50/50 h2o from them and my ro h2o, along with a heater and lil pump.
So I guess my question would be, would I be ok to put the live rock directly into my tank after I pick out what bad critters I can or, should I be cycling it in a seperate bucket with my tank water even though it's already alive and continue to pick out critters. I'm confusing myself with the rock cycle before tank process because I was gunna get dry rock, where it's necessary.
I need the bacteria that's on the rock so I didn't want to kill the rock. Any suggestions?
Nope don't throw that in your tank. I think you would be better off killing that rock first. Its got way to many critters that you won't want down the road. Our hobby takes patience remember that before you do anything. If you want it right and to not have to re do anything take your time. I would take that rock out of water for about four or five days. Let it die. Make sure all those nasty critters are gone. Then throw it back in the tub with rodi only for a week with heater. Pull all the water out n refill with new saltwater.( not display tank water) this is when you will add the benifical bacteria to seed the rock, run about two weeks with heater. Then change fifty percent water. Run for another week or two. Test for phosphate and nitrates. If levels low the rock should be cycled. Definitely need to toss all that river rock it is a phosphate sponge.
Thank u thank u! I've been looking on those websites u suggested. Really like them however they're out of stock with the rock I wanted so I decided to wait. I heard word one of the biggest coral suppliers out here is closing shop. Tuesday only 6-9 everything was 40% off! I got lights a reactor 50 lbs rock and seachem products. Spent way to much money but saved a loottttt!! So now I have this rock to deal with. I'm so excited for getting everything I needed. The only thing I couldn't get my hands on was dr tims or any bacteria. That's why I was hoping i could use the bacteria in the rock I got. I'm so torn I really needed any nitrifing bacteria I could get but I guess that's where seeding it comes to play...
Thanks you I'm gunna follow your direction and kill the rock
50 lbs rock and seachem products. Spent way to much money but saved a loottttt!! So now I have this rock to deal with. I'm so excited for getting everything I needed. The only thing I couldn't get my hands on was dr tims or any bacteria. That's why I was hoping i could use the bacteria in the rock I got. I'm so torn I really needed any nitrifing bacteria I could get but I guess that's where seeding it comes to play...Thanks you I'm gunna follow your direction and kill the rock
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